Screw Markets, I am the East-India Trading Company

[SirDamnALot]

or: how do markets work?

In my longest game so far (blocked by failed to find the given link ranges), I've started midgame to build a trader fleet and fared very well in the money department.

On a new game I wanted to start right away with my trading imperium, but got the message that I need more colonies or markets for full effect.
Aha! So there is a dynamic cap, or rather start of dimishing returns! But after founding a handfull of colonies, I never encountered the cap again.
I did not build any markets (my early game humans don't even have the tech for it ), but I have a nice income, an invasion fleet I can pull out from my behind at any time and I could build more factories/labs/mines than with markets.

So how is the trader fleet cap defined ?
Do markets get exceptionally better in later tech to warrant devoting colony slots to them ?
Are vast trader fleets part of the intended play ? Or should they be more a contributing factor, not the pillar of the economy?

As a thought: Cap the tradeships at the number of systems (not colonies) you have.
Gives you a need to actually build markets for further income.
If you have a trade treaty, the systems of the other race are added to the cap.
Giving you an incentive to make and keep the treatry, but it is a double edged sword.
Your systems are added also to the partner's tradeship cap, so it may not be an even trade.
(e.g. the partner may profit far more from it, but you just need the added systems to keep your finances in order.
Or you are dependant on formed treaties from your partners to keep you from the red numbers.
So partners may have some leverage against you. Similarities to real world politics are purley incidental )

[Arioch]

Currently, the trade pool represents internal trade routes between your own colonies. There is a maximum number of available trade routes based on the number of colonies that you have; this cap number used to be displayed in the tooltip, but it's not in the current version. It appears from the new tooltip that the new Market buildings now also increase the cap, but the only time you're likely to run into the cap is at the very beginning of the game when you have only a few colonies.

We would like to include a mechanism for international trade routes and trade of special luxury resources, and which allows for more faction interaction and commercial infrastructure. We will tackle this after we have the diplomacy system to use as a framework.

[sven]

In my longest game so far (blocked by failed to find the given link ranges),

(I think this bug should be fixed as of yesterday's patches. Loading up game 931 and hitting next turn works for me.)

So how is the trader fleet cap defined ?

This is a variable I played around with a bit when the market improvements went into the game, and I think the numbers I'm using at the moment aren't particularly wisely chosen. But, just to be clear about it, the current formula gives you 5 potential coins worth of trade for every 5 colonists on a planet, plus a bonus based on the number of markets. The per-market bonus goes up as your sociology tech improves, starting at 5 per and then increasing to 8 per when you unlock Interspecies Law.

Do markets get exceptionally better in later tech to warrant devoting colony slots to them ?

I think what we've got right now is a system where markets do get better, but, not enough to make the trade cap increase that useful. Once you have the economy to start turning out endless tradeships, that quickly becomes more important than anything else.

Are vast trader fleets part of the intended play ? Or should they be more a contributing factor, not the pillar of the economy?

Right now, I think trade fleets are too much a pillar. I should probably adjust the cap calculation formula..

As a thought: Cap the tradeships at the number of systems (not colonies) you have.
Gives you a need to actually build markets for further income.

This is a simple change, and one I think we will consider; at least as a short-term adjustment.

[bjg]

I've managed to reach the cap in middle and even late game, but it was a lot of clicking. Auto-assign to trade you'd mentioned before would be very helpful.

[sven]

I've managed to reach the cap in middle and even late game, but it was a lot of clicking. Auto-assign to trade you'd mentioned before would be very helpful.

And I believe you did this while playing in a Huge 99-star galaxy. The Huge/99 map isn't really the one I have in mind when doing most balancing, but, I do think we need to keep such maps in mind when adjusting the gameplay variables. And right now, I think the trade fleets you're incentivized to build on huge maps are probably way too big. One or more of the related trade variables needs to change.

[bjg]

Have you thought how many tracks there are on the Earth? Trade ship are pretty much tracks in scale.
Speaking of the galaxy size - in the latest 4x games galaxies are closer to a thousand than a hundred stars.

[SirDamnALot]

Currently, the trade pool represents internal trade routes between your own colonies. There is a maximum number of available trade routes based on the number of colonies that you have; this cap number used to be displayed in the tooltip, but it's not in the current version. It appears from the new tooltip that the new Market buildings now also increase the cap, but the only time you're likely to run into the cap is at the very beginning of the game when you have only a few colonies.

We would like to include a mechanism for international trade routes and trade of special luxury resources, and which allows for more faction interaction and commercial infrastructure. We will tackle this after we have the diplomacy system to use as a framework.

Sounds cool, I'm all for strategic ressources. They spice up the economy (pun intended )

SirDamnALot wrote:
In my longest game so far (blocked by failed to find the given link ranges),
(I think this bug should be fixed as of yesterday's patches. Loading up game 931 and hitting next turn works for me.)

Just checked, yes it works! Thanks!

Thanks again you two for taking the time to explain =)

I've managed to reach the cap in middle and even late game, but it was a lot of clicking. Auto-assign to trade you'd mentioned before would be very helpful.

Then you must be rolling in dough
Another funny income source:
I got a random slaver colony that didn't want any trouble and was giving me 5 gold/turn for not making a fuss. I don't know if that attitude was related to my faction (human) or firepower (starting heavy cruiser), but I like that this is even an option.
Waltzing in with your heavy cruiser and taking the lunch money of the little snakes

Have you thought how many tracks there are on the Earth? Trade ship are pretty much tracks in scale.
Speaking of the galaxy size - in the latest 4x games galaxies are closer to a thousand than a hundred stars.

Thats a scale I wouldn't want to manage At least not in the "personal" detail we do here.

[sven]

I got a random slaver colony that didn't want any trouble and was giving me 5 gold/turn for not making a fuss. I don't know if that attitude was related to my faction (human) or firepower (starting heavy cruiser), but I like that this is even an option.

Mostly your firepower. Gremak Marauders don't particularly like humans, but they like getting blasted apart even less. They're generally willing to talk, and/or offer brides, to anyone with a scary enough navy.

Waltzing in with your heavy cruiser and taking the lunch money of the little snakes

Yes, that's working as intended. Interactions of this sort should become more common when the diplomacy features go in

[SirDamnALot]

I got a random slaver colony that didn't want any trouble and was giving me 5 gold/turn for not making a fuss. I don't know if that attitude was related to my faction (human) or firepower (starting heavy cruiser), but I like that this is even an option.

Mostly your firepower. Gremak Marauders don't particularly like humans, but they like getting blasted apart even less. They're generally willing to talk, and/or offer brides, to anyone with a scary enough navy.

Waltzing in with your heavy cruiser and taking the lunch money of the little snakes

Yes, that's working as intended. Interactions of this sort should become more common when the diplomacy features go in

I encountered a Gremak slave colony in several games, and that they behaved differently is a great feature. Sometimes they are neutral "don't ask don't tell", sometimes more abrasive or more polite. Thats great fun to me I had one time a slave poplulation gladly join my empire after liberation from the slavers. good times indeed
And I know it's weird, but I am more inclined to liberate a human slave population than e.g. an ashdar one. Funny how we can even sympathize with virtual humans better than other (equal virtual) races.

[mharmless]

And I know it's weird, but I am more inclined to liberate a human slave population than e.g. an ashdar one.

Liberate... yes... all those Ashdar are working my mines willingly, and for a living wage...

[SirDamnALot]

And I know it's weird, but I am more inclined to liberate a human slave population than e.g. an ashdar one.

Liberate... yes... all those Ashdar are working my mines willingly, and for a living wage...

They actually asked to join my faction after the gremak fleet in orbit was nuked
Once I found a colony without any fleets and they asked to join after exploration with my scout ship