DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

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Arioch
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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby Arioch » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:47 pm

I would like to do a revamp of the way the various raiders work in DLC2, but we'll see where it fits.

The above list addresses where certain features might fit into various DLC, but it's not an exhaustive list of all the things we want to do.

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby zolobolo » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:02 pm

Arioch wrote:I would like to do a revamp of the way the various raiders work in DLC2, but we'll see where it fits.

Juhu! :)

Maybe rewamp raiding fucntion to ignore ground forces and have Marauders only raid and not bobmard and destroy buildings while Pirates being out to capture combat and trade ships and ocassioanlly pillage?

There are lots of way to go but glad if both become a factor in a way (currently ignoring Harpies in the game as the Nodes were only worth taking to stop the random incursions generated from the source)

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby Arioch » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:36 pm

What I'd like to do is to make the various raider forces each seem more like a functioning ecosystem and less artificial, with Marauders sitting on peach planets full of slaves sitting around doing nothing, and reinforcements that just appear out of nowhere. I'd like to make the Death's Hand more active and nomadic, and restore the ability to interact with them. I'd like to make the Marauders seem more functional, making sure they have markets for their slaves (adding independent Gremak "manor" worlds if there is no nearby Gremak major faction) and sources for their ships (adding an industrial shipbuilding world run by a "Marauder King" if there is no nearby Gremak major faction). As well as a greater variety of bases and configurations for both.

I think the Harpies are in an okay place right now, though of course we do intend to do more with the Arda Seed in the future.

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby sishelper » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:33 am

Speaking about Pirate bases I would like to see a Pirate base tech which allows you to reconfigure captured pirate bases. You get the tech by killing lots of pirates or by making a marauder planet diplo - join you. As of now when I get the Pirate base I cant reconfigure it, would like it to have 2 large sys slots too contrary to the asteroid base which has 1 slot. And a person should be able to build new pirate bases if there is a planet ring. Asteroid and Pirate Bases being very large should have a movement capability much like the Tinker Mobile Bases. Else I seldom build Asteroid bases but adding simple thrusters to them would make me want and fight for that ring planet.

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby zolobolo » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:31 am

Arioch wrote:I'd like to make the Death's Hand more active and nomadic, and restore the ability to interact with them. I'd like to make the Marauders seem more functional, making sure they have markets for their slaves (adding independent Gremak "manor" worlds if there is no nearby Gremak major faction) and sources for their ships (adding an industrial shipbuilding world run by a "Marauder King" if there is no nearby Gremak major faction). As well as a greater variety of bases and configurations for both.

Those things all sounds wonderful :)

Nomadic pirates would be such a nice touch: You could pay them off not to attack you so you wouldn't necessarily have to fight them but them still begin a pain to live with? Or pay to go somewhere else like punching a festering ball of ever growing disease onto your neighbor who would be furious :)

Then again they would need to be on your territory to supply mercs right? There were numerous cases from the Roman Empire to eastern European countries where a kingdom was shutting a blind eye on nomadic tribes living in it area in exchange for their "well paid" military services

Their mechanic could even be the foundation for a nomadic main faction eventually...


Arioch wrote:I think the Harpies are in an okay place right now

Is it intended for them no to send raiding parties anymore?

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby zolobolo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:10 pm

Do you think Deaths Hands will get their own ground troop type (e.g.: cyborg pirate raiders)?

The introduction of the Gardeners might be a good opportunity to diversify ground troops and make them more faction specific as these creatures do not seem like ones suited to use tanks

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby Devildogff » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:33 pm

This all sounds very, very exciting, but I imagine at the current pace, it'd be 2022 before we even see DLC3, let alone DLC2.

I'm hopeful, but not holding my breath.
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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby nweismuller » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:07 pm

Speaking of timeframes, I hope work on DLC2 has been going fairly well? I remain excited to see what you have in store for us, and am eager to test new content out.

As far as increasing the complexity of Maruaders... I certainly don't mind it, but I tended to assume, given the high development on Marauder worlds, that they were basically 'pocket empires' left over from the isolation after the Great War. And they certainly had the factories to do some building on their own. What was notably missing on Marauder worlds was the mines to feed those factories and the labs to ensure they'd actually get the tech progression they get in game, not the factories to beef up their fleets. If you're planning to make Marauder strongholds more dependent on selling labor, though, I suppose you can make them significantly less-developed on average, and have the 'manor' worlds be the ones who are cranking out the metal and food to feed the Marauder system... and the Marauder King be the one with the industrial base to churn out new ships.

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby zolobolo » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:56 am

[quote="nweismuller"have the 'manor' worlds be the ones who are cranking out the metal and food to feed the Marauder system[/quote]
I like the idea a lot: in previous versions, we have seen them capturing and holding colonies like which would fit right in with the above, but I think they werent building any mines or farms there

Maybe they still do this but the AI is just good enough at keeping them away - most likely though, conquer action is not used by them anymore since the large rebalancing of AI to relieve the pressure

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby zolobolo » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:07 am

All and all I think the early and mid game is at a very good place now. What is lackign is challenge in the late game where the player hasnt won yet but is just a question of 50 turns to reach the vote count needed

For the late phase some late enemy would fit in nicely and Marauder King would fit in nicely to that: too many Marauder havens left unchecked could eventually give rise to a king who would be able to take on the player (or the dominant empire to give the player another crack at defeating them suing their fude).

Naturally, a bunch of remote Marauder havens and their colonies would not be able to go toe-to-toe with an established (and likely very concentrated) late-game empire, unless they had a unique trcik up their sleves :) I am thinking of sneaky tech that can undermine a large empire reducing their most valuable resource needed to rn everything: Coin

Such techs or tactics could decimate the coin production of the target empire e.g.:
1. Changing Raiding action to not only take slaves but also considerable amount of coin, while ignoring ground troops (this owuld increase their success rate considerably and hit even a large empire hard but withouth destroying the colony)
Having cloacking tech already helps them to conduct surprise attacks which is very good
2. Diplomatic action to form trade embargos against the dominant empire. This is also already somewhat in place but of course would not be enough byitself as during the late game all other empires do not count up for much mostly. Of course when they do it woudl lead to some very interesting situation :)

Harpies would be a naturaly source of late game enemy but if they are not planned to be furhter developed, the Marauder King concept sounds like the best idea for that

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby gaerzi » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:20 pm

The idea of some netherspace ("anti-hyperspace") critters that has come up before could make a fine endgame threat. Kind of like the Antarans in MOO2, or the Reapers in Mass Effect, or Them from Star Control, or whatever threat the Vasari are fleeing in Sins of a Solar Empire, etc.: monsters coming out of nowhere and attacking everyone but concentrating on the most powerful empires.

Especially if you're going towards a diplomatic victory by having a large empire and lots of allies, and suddenly some new threat emerges that could spell doom for all civilizations, will you be able to unite the galaxy and turn the tides, or will your enemies try to take advantage of the chaos and sabotage you as if the galaxy-ending threat was a secondary matter? That's an epic ending.

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby Arioch » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:58 pm

Also, having parallel planes that are accessed through certain map points (hyperspace anomalies, black holes, and special gates) can make for some interesting strategic play. The subterranean realm in Age of Wonders or the Myrror realm in Master of Magic are good examples of this. Essentially, you have multiple maps that you can switch back and forth between, and you have to be aware of the location of "portals", both offensively and defensively.

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby zolobolo » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:51 pm

Arioch wrote:you have to be aware of the location of "portals", both offensively and defensively.

Just use the Hyperspace anomalies... they are already in game, wouldnt need to create new strategic layer or assets and would give them a purpose to exist

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby zolobolo » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:39 pm

One of the reasons I am looking forward to new races in this game is for an old premise of Galciv3: havign such a wast galaxy with so many civs that you can have mayor empires forming and being destroyed withouth the player even knowing.

Now above game never delvierd on this for for various reasons nor any other sapce 4X so far but have a good feeling it might come together here:
0. Range limitation of ships is given
1. Shared exploration and opern ports is not that easy to acheive anymore (thansk to diplo updates)
2. Number of stars not an issue: usually playing at 100 systems already causes empires to be met well after 200 turns
3. Natural factions are a main reason for this besides the size: they form impassable zones around their control area (this has decreased somewhat with pirate and Harpy raids stopping altogether - but seem they will make a comback so wil lget better again :)
4. Number of factions is nearly there: there are now 8 factions available. In order to have a good chance of achieving such a scenario, they ideally need to form at least 3 layers with each CIV having AVG 3 neighbours withouth mayor conquest. This would mean min 10 factions with one starting in the center of the galaxy (for which I have sene examples here though I am not sure it was intentional as factions do seem to be spread out equally most of the time)

9 might still do it with the help of tons of natural faction presence, 150 stars and some initial placing luck :)
With 10 factions I am almost ceartant the scneario could be achieved

Yes, we can already deploy >10 factions by duplicating some but there is a huge downside to this and that is repetition of empires insignia, designation, and galaxy map empire terrirory/ship colors). For the Gardeners I believe Brown and some shade of purple is being evaluated: brown should fit in nicely but purple might also work if contrasting enough with existing Imperial color

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Re: DLC 3 and 4, from the Suggestions thread...

Postby zolobolo » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:07 pm

This would be an example for 3 layered positioning: fist layer is the center and then the rest of the civs are positioned within one of two circels around that:
Layout.GIF
Layout.GIF (5.85 KiB) Viewed 2182 times


Naturally, if one starts on hte edge of the galaxy, it is mch easier to get a bunch of buffer to other empires, but that makes games like this too easy as the possible attack angles are reduced to <40%. BTW: I think there might be some logica already in place here that makes systems aroudn the edge of the map less likely to host habitable worlds and good planets at that (which is a very good thing if that is the case)

Starting in one of the blue locations though the player would be able to condcut war and diplomacy in all directions and still have chance for some mayor events taking place outside of their range and sight


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