One of the big issues with missiles and torpedoes (and one of the reasons I find the viper launcher effective) is am extremely limited amount of ammunition. 6 units of munitions per launcher is 3 shots, with Extra Munitions you might double that (assuming a missile based hull, extra munitions is not really viable to use a systems space otherwise) . Contrast to the viper launcher, which does not have ammunition to worry about. Perhaps if each launcher was boosted to an extra 25 % capacity ( up to a base 8 ammunition), and if Extra munitions added more (perhaps a factor of 25 % on that as well, perhaps higher due to the extreme value of systems slots) the value of these systems might be restored. Planetary missiles have a much greater bite since the ammunitions issue is addressed for them. Damage per missile is also an issue. Coilguns are 6-9 damage, unlimited ammunition, have shield piercing by default, and have 2 possible mods (accurate and long range). Missiles do 8 damage, have a very limited amount of ammunition, always hit(unless destroyed) and extreme range. Perhaps bring the damage up a few points (to 10) for baseline missiles.

Chasm wrote:One of the big issues with missiles and torpedoes (and one of the reasons I find the viper launcher effective) is am extremely limited amount of ammunition. 6 units of munitions per launcher is 3 shots, with Extra Munitions you might double that (assuming a missile based hull, extra munitions is not really viable to use a systems space otherwise) . Contrast to the viper launcher, which does not have ammunition to worry about. Perhaps if each launcher was boosted to an extra 25 % capacity ( up to a base 8 ammunition), and if Extra munitions added more (perhaps a factor of 25 % on that as well, perhaps higher due to the extreme value of systems slots) the value of these systems might be restored. Planetary missiles have a much greater bite since the ammunitions issue is addressed for them. Damage per missile is also an issue. Coilguns are 6-9 damage, unlimited ammunition, have shield piercing by default, and have 2 possible mods (accurate and long range). Missiles do 8 damage, have a very limited amount of ammunition, always hit(unless destroyed) and extreme range. Perhaps bring the damage up a few points (to 10) for baseline missiles.

Sure, these seem like perfectly sensible suggestions. We're planning on fairly sweeping tactical and design updates prior to release, but, that said, giving missiles a little boost in the meantime wouldn't hurt. I've tweaked missile stats more or less as suggested in the latest stable build.

Currently missiles are Nuclear 10, fusion 18, antimatter 30
Torpedoes are nuclear 25, fusion 50, antimatter 100
Antimissiles are nuclear 2, fusion 4, antimatter 8
By these progressions, should missile damage be nuclear 10, fusion 20, antimatter 40 ?

Chasm wrote:Currently missiles are Nuclear 10, fusion 18, antimatter 30
Torpedoes are nuclear 25, fusion 50, antimatter 100
Antimissiles are nuclear 2, fusion 4, antimatter 8
By these progressions, should missile damage be nuclear 10, fusion 20, antimatter 40 ?

I actually try to keep the progressions from being too perfect, on the grounds that the real world rarely conforms to simple mathematical models But if you playtest with the current numbers, and new munitions rules, and feel than antimatter missiles are still too weak relative to similarly tiered weapons, it won't hurt to let me know.

Is there any way that anti missiles could automaticly act as point defense, since that is their primary role?

Chasm wrote:Is there any way that anti missiles could automaticly act as point defense, since that is their primary role?

In earlier builds they did. The intention behind the current design is for anti-missiles to have a niche role as longer-range missile and fighter defense. Like all other missiles, they can't fire automatically, but to compensate they're effective at much longer ranges than any of the point defense weapons. We're going to need to put in our fighter revisions before it becomes clear how well this is working. (Both anti-missiles and interceptors are currently slotted for similar tactical roles, so we may yet change our intentions around just what sorts of strengths and weaknesses we want anti-missiles to have.) For now though, their inability to fire automatically is 'working as intended'.

Also force beams (same tier as antimatter missiles, same slot type) do 25- 35 damage, with er and ac mod capability, perhaps antimatter to 35 up from 30?

Chasm wrote:Also force beams (same tier as antimatter missiles, same slot type) do 25- 35 damage, with er and ac mod capability, perhaps antimatter to 35 up from 30?

Yeah, and and by analogy to Hellbore DPS, they should almost be 45-50 per shot. Antimatter warheads are a bit cheaper to research than either Force Beams or Hellbores, but, on reviewing the numbers, I think you're right: 30 is the a very low-end of a reasonable expected power level for anti-matter warheads. 40-50 feels closer to right. I will push it up to 40 in the next patch. (And Fusion to 20 as well, just to because putting round numbers on the missile damage functions is a kinda satisfying symmetry.)

Sorry for being a pain in the tail.

Bug or feature , Missile cruisers armed 2 x leach(shield damage only) 2 x emp(capture damage) detonate enemy hulls rather then have anything to capture. Emp missiles seem to be bypassing shields and damaging armor. Knocked out systems (yellow bar) repair in the next turn before you are able to do anything about the effect of the impact (Ie missiles impact during opponent's turn, turn ends, beginning of next turn before you are allowed to act opponents systems are repaired). See game 1553

Chasm wrote:Bug or feature , Missile cruisers armed 2 x leach(shield damage only) 2 x emp(capture damage) detonate enemy hulls rather then have anything to capture. Emp missiles seem to be bypassing shields and damaging armor. Knocked out systems (yellow bar) repair in the next turn before you are able to do anything about the effect of the impact (Ie missiles impact during opponent's turn, turn ends, beginning of next turn before you are allowed to act opponents systems are repaired). See game 1553

Most likely a bug -- I'll look into it. Thanks for the report.

Confirmed, using only emp missles I am more likely to kill a hull then to make immobile so I can board it. Sidenote, missiles are both more effective to use now (I am actually fielding them) and a lot more worrisome to have used on you.

Missiles are much more viable now, and are in the worth using category. Additional munitions, however, does not seem a compelling choice in terms of the amount of extra volleys you receive, compared to the loss of a shield generator. Perhaps an extra buff to capacity for them? I realize it varies per hull, but, generally speaking on a full missile configuration (which is where you will be using extra munitions) you are getting less then 2 extra volleys. Perhaps 6 points of munitions per hull class , up from 5 ? Or perhaps even 8 (which is the amount of munitions a missile system hardpoint gets as a baseline). With 8 an additional munitions would fully reload one depleted missile hardpoint.

The interesting tension behind missiles (and torpedoes) in a modern context are their ability, at standoff, to produce a mission kill with something very close to a single hit. The counterbalances are target acquisition difficulty, the target's active protection (soft-kill/hard-kill countermeasures), and the weapon's very limited availability.

If your missiles/torpedoes don't balance out those features, you end up with designs that look like poor versions of gun-type systems. In other words, they revert back to dps comparisons instead of the potential advantage of alpha strikes.

What systems with limited ammunition could beat unlimited ones with comparable dps? I think none; then add to that the risk of targets' point defenses. Limited supply missiles look like a poor choice under those circumstances.

(same applies to subcraft too--bombers, etc.)

I agree that magazines should have a lot more reloads.

Sven made the adjustments to missile capacity and damage because they were quick and easy to do, but we haven't even begun on the weapons balance pass.