Humans on Hard Difficulty

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nelson2208
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Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby nelson2208 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:52 pm

I'm sure this topic has come up before and I read everything I could find online. I have beaten the game with the Ashdar Colonials and Yoral on Hard so I decided to try Humans. I tried multiple times to find a good starting point and finally got a good game going. So I thought. I made peace with neighboring Yoral but the Haduir are right against me. Their main fleet is around 20 ships with 4 carriers and 4 heavy cruisers all with deflector screens. I am one away from deflector screens and two away from Heavy cruisers much less building all of that. Btw the Yoral also have a 20 ship fleet with their tiny frigates. While not tough ships, that volume is more than my 7 ship fleet.

I feel my expansion was similar to other games I won. That 3-4 turn start at beginning until I get a colony cannot be that huge. I have the best planets compared to Haduir and Yoral but that's it. I can't out expand them because they are already ahead and there are no good stars within reach to east (they are in west).

How can you win with Humans on hard?

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Arioch
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby Arioch » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:50 pm

Humans are meant to be more difficult than the other factions to play. Unless they happen to get a really favorable start, they will often be behind the 8-ball in the early and midgame.

nelson2208
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby nelson2208 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:45 am

I get that and read that elsewhere but how I am supposed to overcome two enormous fleets on my doorstep? Will these fleets not expand? Won't they just be even larger by the time I get Heavy Cruisers? They can obliterate me any time they want. I have made peace with them but it seems the likelihood of ever overcoming them is unlikely. I guess the path to victory is hope to maintain the peace so they never attack and hope my fleet (while never actually to defeat them in battle) is at least impressive enough on paper for diplomatic victory??

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sven
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby sven » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:16 am

nelson2208 wrote:I get that and read that elsewhere but how I am supposed to overcome two enormous fleets on my doorstep? Will these fleets not expand? Won't they just be even larger by the time I get Heavy Cruisers? They can obliterate me any time they want. I have made peace with them but it seems the likelihood of ever overcoming them is unlikely. I guess the path to victory is hope to maintain the peace so they never attack and hope my fleet (while never actually to defeat them in battle) is at least impressive enough on paper for diplomatic victory??


The current AI is actually fairly bad at teching up -- they tend put most of their resources into their military, even when they're at peace. That's something you can turn to your advantage, if you can secure a peaceful border through diplomacy, and then tech aggressively yourself. The AI is also less than perfect when it comes to routing its ships during war time, so you can often manage to defeat a superior enemy force in detail with a little luck and/or tricky maneuvering.

AIs will also tend to fight among themselves, which can create windows of opportunity to expand into the territory of one of your neighbors once they've already committed to a major war.

So while hard mode humans are certainly hard -- those games generally shouldn't be impossible.

nelson2208
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby nelson2208 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:43 pm

Thanks for the responses. Most battles especially early on, I am able to win with smaller fleets. I only autocombat when I have a dominant fleet so I minimize losses. I did start another game because I think I made too many mistakes early on the tech tree. This start does seem luckier because there are 2 x 18 size planets only protected by small pirate fleets. Thanks for the advice/direction and hopefully I'll win my first game soon with Humans!

nathanebht
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby nathanebht » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:31 pm

The problem is that the human race's stats are too low. Compare their stats to the Yoral's stats.

The delayed start and then the low stats are too much of a hit when playing on hard difficulty.

Dragar
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby Dragar » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:48 am

I'm engaged in a pretty epic Hard game as humans on a huge (88) star map. It's mostly turned into the two Haduir factions versus everyone else.

I've been sure I was done for a number of times, but human assault transports - especially cloaked - are pretty wonderful at stealing both tech and Ashdar battleships. I have stolen many.

My first fright came from a whole load of those bad boys armed with railguns - while I was still on RF lasers. It didn't get better when I met a cutting edge fleet armed with force lances and forcefields! Queue rapid refitting to sad armour modules instead of shields.

It's still very much in the balance, but I think I'm winning the war of attrition... Slowly.

zolobolo
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby zolobolo » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:01 pm

In my opinion the real downside of playing humans are the
1. Lack of meaningful options in the early game (need a lot of time to build up a planet and metal mining to a level to even start building ships (giving them assault troops from the start could help this as we could go around santching ships)
2. Human pops do not have any advantage over any other pop type (even minor ones). Their only bonus is the increased moral when city building but this almost never comes into play. Their stats objectively makes them the worst pop type around and it is never wouth having them over the others. Increased base reproduction rate for Humans would give a reason for havign htem around as well as enforce the feeling of them being the cockroaches of the galaxy

Both of the above would also resolve the issue some might have playing them on harder difficulties

Generally though I follow the same strategy on harder difficulties no matter what faction I play as - that is why I do not play on this diffculty except for testing (its always rapid tech-catch-up and cheesing the AI)

evil713
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby evil713 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:14 pm

Ooh idea for new human mechanic "Come Home" human ships begin appering randomly every 10 turns for 100 turns, then every 25 after that. Small random groups of ships, with random techs in each.

Dragar
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby Dragar » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:07 pm

I'd like human terraforming expanded a touch. They seem to get almost nothing out of those techs.

zolobolo
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby zolobolo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:29 pm

Dragar wrote:I'd like human terraforming expanded a touch. They seem to get almost nothing out of those techs.


Goo idea: terraforming benefits to a faction. Either enable terraforming for them earlier (or from the start) via the next update, or enable unique terraforming options to them: Human Haven which would cause Human and only Human pops to increase at double rate (accounting for migration to these havens from around the galaxy)

This would then also make human pops valuable in mid-late game where such haven-planets would crop up as you could only take full advantage of them via human pops

It would probably also not need new planet types: just add a new biome to the planet (though graphical represenatation is of course welcome like always)

evil713
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby evil713 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:48 pm

See I don't like the idea of early terraforming, pop gen is important I know, but what we are talking about is a racial feature.

The thing that needs to make them better needs to A: be a defining feature that no other faction can use, or use to its fullest and B:Defines humanity as a race and a playstyle.

Each race has something that that is theirs and theirs alone (in some cases like the Yoral specific projectile weapon been removed, hopefully to come back some time in the future), like access to the mercenary exchange, or gunships, or the tinkers forge. Some things just lead into end game tech and that's ok. In those cases it gives an early edge and defines that races playstyle as much as their ship design.

Humanity requires something that gives them an advantage in that one area in the early game, and is still useful in the late game.

All of humanities current advantages are researchable by any faction, without the need of acquisition through warfare. This is the issue, they are harder but for no benefit.

Yes they get a battleship at the beginning, but its not well armed, or well teched. It can be stronger but only on easy mode. It is still very killable. If it was a unique ship that would be something but its not. Hell if the starting station was unique that would of been a plus. Everything else is just early access to some techs allowing colonising to catch up to other races.

Dragar
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby Dragar » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:04 pm

Regarding terraforming, I only mention it because it's an absolute ton of research points that allows for a tiny amount of extra population - it's an absolute trap for humans in particular, who seem to benefit less than anyone for the same amount of research.

I really don't think humans are in as bad a shape as is suggested.

They have some weird stuff - a beam research affinity but a battleship with dedicated torpedo hardpoints and extra munitions? what? - which makes me wonder if I should have gone harder into torpedoes, carriers and (of course) boarding, with beams only for PD. But overall they are fine as a 'hard' faction. It's a nice quirk humans are the scrappy underdogs.

zolobolo
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Re: Humans on Hard Difficulty

Postby zolobolo » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:40 pm

In most cases the faction unique tech is avaialble to all via end-game tech (repair module, cloacking, siege gun, carriers or energy torps) and I think that is fine. I would prefer to see all unique features being reseachable in the end (even if it is only a nerfed version like in case of repair module) - it lends a breath of authenticity to the Galaxy: all races advance in their owne way but have access to everything theoretically)

But I agree that in hte beginning it should be unique and fit the style of the race

For this reason terraforming might suite Humans as:
1. It is already endgame tech (so generally unique for them for at least a while)
2. Giving them a Human specific biome (haven) would give Humans an edge over everyone else when using this function
3. Fit their style check: Having a race that has been denied a planetary home for so long, they might be inclined to settle down and do some terraforming (this is already reflected in their morale boost when building cities" + all the scattered Humans would love to unite with their brethren on a dedicated biom: home at last. But also increased pop growth would fit with the overall theme: Humans are a plague on the Galaxy as far as the others are concerned. Building their own Bioms (reducing viability for all other races) + reproducing like rats fits the perception of other races of them

Unique starting ship and base is also fine but less prelevant over the game. Its either a single ships (and they already have unique ships like all other races) or a single base. If Human bases would have some sort of benefit over all others that would be a different thing (increase planetary resources for example)


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