Terraforming

[Serenitis]

I'm quite looking forward to seeing how the new system is going to work.
Terraforming is one of the things I tend to lean into hard in any game like this, as I like to make nice places for my spacemans to live.

The progression chart itself is quite interesting, especially how the various types link together. There's so many ways to go about it depending on how you expect to make that change, or even how it aligns with the rest of your setting.
Although this might well be a solved problem by now, here's an example of a 'different take':

Spoiler: show

Inferno & Titan moved up and linked to the Arid chain. (Inferno gets a unique biome, so Titan does now too: Cryonic.)
Swamp & Marsh are the Hot/Cold variants of Garden.
Gaia and Coral are still thier own things.
Ocean, Glacier & Iceball are chained to represent the various phases of water due to temperature.
Not sure about the link between Ocean & Island, but it's arguably better to have consistency within your own setting than adhere strictly to 'reality'.

Possible that Glacier might fit better by moving it 'up' and linking it to Island & Marsh, then returning the original Iceball to Ocean link.
Who knows? None of this is my call anyway so it doesn't matter at all!
I just love playing with terraforming mechanics.

Part of the image in a post above is especially interesting.
This thing:

Spoiler: show

It incorporates an element I've not seen in a long time, from one of the best implementations of terraforming I've seen in any game.
Ironically, this was in one of the most mediocre games ever created; Master of Orion 3.

Spoiler: show

In the bottom-right of that screen is the environment chart. On it is temperature accross the bottom, and atmospheric pressure up the side.
Every single race in the game has a 'preference', a combination of those 2 variables within which it can thrive.
Perfect is the white bit in the middle.
The green bits are good.
The yellow bits are uncomfortable but livable.
And the red bits are hab domes only.

For SiS, it might look something like:


I have no idea exactly how this update is going to change things. But the inclusion of those two simple parameters gives a hint that this could possibly be the direction it's heading in.
And that is a p. big deal if true.

[Arioch]

The idea is to keep transitions in stages, but to increase the number of stages for each transition so that a full transition between planet types takes multiple, longer projects, but that each stage has tangible benefits. We do track temperature, atmospheric pressure and surface water, but these are just characteristics of each stage. We will need to reconsider how the "Fertility" mechanism (which governs Food output) works in the new system, but I think the racial habitability system doesn't need to change; each race is rated for each planet type, and receives a growth bonus when on its preferred type.

terraforming_stages1.jpg (132.08 KiB) Viewed 25204 times

Each stage will have a cost in terraforming points (or "shovels"), which are generated by researchable productions projects or buildable infrastructure. Shovels can be generated directly via a Terraforming production task, or passively through buildable infrastructure (such as atmosphere processing buildings or orbital mirrors or sunshades), and will contribute to the currently selected terraforming target, which is selected through a different menu from the production menu, and runs parallel to and asynchronously from the production queue.

terraforming_target1.jpg (40.64 KiB) Viewed 25204 times

Each terraforming transition will have a list of valid change characteristics (or "terraforming vectors"), which determing which terraforming methods will be effective for that transition. For example, Heating and Greenhouse (atmospheric thickening) vectors will be valid for the Arid to Garden transition, so any infrastructure or projects with Heating or Greenhouse attributes will contribute shovels every turn toward that terraforming target. You can let a transition happen passively, or you can speed it up by building more terraforming infrastructure, and/or by selecting an active Terraforming production project. For example, the Gardeners' population directly generates shovels, so they'll be able to start passively terraforming wet worlds towards their optimal Coral World target right from the start of the game.

(It should go without saying that all of this is still in development, and subject to change.)

Although this might well be a solved problem by now, here's an example of a 'different take':

Inferno already has its own its own biome. The "Titan" is where it is on our chart because it's quite wet, wetter than Earth. I doubt we'll include a "Titan" at this point, because I don't think it currently offers any gameplay value over other inhospitable planet types, but if we do, "Cryonic" is a good name for it.

The Glacier type is not closely related to the Ocean and Iceball types. A Glacier is essentially just a colder Garden. An Ocean world is distinctly different from an Island world; an Island world is essentially a warmer Garden world with deeper oceans but still a relatively thin layer of surface water, but an Ocean world has no oceans that are hundreds or even thousands of kilometers deep (and an Iceball is essentially a colder Ocean world). The difference is so vast that I'm not sure an Island to Ocean transition will even be possible.

[AMX]

The Glacier type is not closely related to the Ocean and Iceball types. A Glacier is essentially just a colder Garden. An Ocean world is distinctly different from an Island world; an Island world is essentially a warmer Garden world with deeper oceans but still a relatively thin layer of surface water, but an Ocean world has no oceans that are hundreds or even thousands of kilometers deep (and an Iceball is essentially a colder Ocean world). The difference is so vast that I'm not sure an Island to Ocean transition will even be possible.

That almost sounds like we're missing a planet type between Island and Ocean.

[Arioch]

That almost sounds like we're missing a planet type between Island and Ocean.

We're missing lots of planet types, but this isn't meant to be a simulation. The goal is to give the player more options to improve some of his worlds, and not necessarily a tool to transform any planet into any other desired planet.

The Ocean is sort of the aquatic equivalent of a Barren world, and perhaps even harder to transform into something more habitable. It's difficult on the order of trying to transform a gas giant. An awful lot of mass would have to be shifted around. It's not impossible, but I don't think it's practical on the time scales represented in the game.

[Serenitis]

It's like a super-streamlined version of the MoO3 mechanic, only with discrete stages rather than a sliding scale.
From what you've shown it looks simple enough that it's not going to get in the way of the game, but with just enough detail to give the player some idea of what's happening and why.
Definitely looking promising!

The way I'd thought about the Ocean thing. Ocean worlds have vents, so they have to have a solid surface somewhere. And if they have a solid surface with water on top and then some atmosphere, then Ocean differs from Island only by a matter of degree. They both have the same stucture, just in different proportions.
And the player seeing a 'water' world and a 'water with islands' world is likely to make a connection between them. So even though the link between Ocean and Island worlds doesn't technically make sense as you've pointed out, it does maintain the convention you've already established with the other transformations.

It's not super important tbh. If Ocean & Iceball end up being an 'odd couple' that don't connect to anything else then that's just how it is.
The main thing is doing what you think is right.

I will admit that I hadn't considered the 'Ocean = wet barren" or "soggy gas giant" things.
Everyone thinks about the same stuff differently.

[Arioch]

And if they have a solid surface with water on top and then some atmosphere, then Ocean differs from Island only by a matter of degree. They both have the same stucture, just in different proportions.

Sure, all planets are just balls of matter, differing mainly in proportions. The difference between an Arid world and an Island world is really only a comparatively thin layer of surface water (and a slightly thicker atmosphere), but the difference between an Island world and an Ocean world is a huge amount of water. You could somehow blow that water off, but this is like saying you could create a terrestrial world out of a gas giant by blowing off most of the gas: true, but I think this is something more in the realm of godlike superscience than it is within the technology range and time scale modeled in the game.

When one draws up a transition chart it's tempting to want to connect all the dots, but I think there are some transitions that just don't make sense, either in terms of gameplay, plausibility, or both.

That said, Sven and I talked about the possibility of a special Ocean world transformation for the Gardeners that's analogous to the Island-Coral World custom transformation, and I'm starting to think that makes sense. But we have to be careful about making these transformations too good, or they just become unbalancing and ultimately boring.

[Serenitis]

You could somehow blow that water off, but this is like saying you could create a terrestrial world out of a gas giant by blowing off most of the gas: true, but I think this is something more in the realm of godlike superscience than it is within the technology range and time scale modeled in the game.

At the risk of being somewhat fatuous.... The game already models this particular transformation by allowing ocean to be changed to other types.
(Not being entirely serious with this btw.)
Not that it really matters as it's going to be changed anyway.

The temptation to 'connect all the dots' is definitely a thing. Based, I think partly on a desire for consistency. And partly on, not so much a concern, but a niggle, that without all the dots connected that some races are going struggle a bit because they can't really deal with the 'walled off' bits (which are quite commonly occuring), while some other races can use both halves of the transitions with almost impunity.

[e]
Will small worlds be as limited for terraforming as they currently are?
One of those 'niggles' I had was the relative ease the races with access to hives could make small worlds more useful, while everyone else had no options at all.

[Arioch]

At the risk of being somewhat fatuous.... The game already models this particular transformation by allowing ocean to be changed to other types.
(Not being entirely serious with this btw.)
Not that it really matters as it's going to be changed anyway.

The game also currently allows you to create new planets out of nothing and to terraform a world for about the cost of a cruiser. Yes, that's why it's being changed.

Will small worlds be as limited for terraforming as they currently are?
One of those 'niggles' I had was the relative ease the races with access to hives could make small worlds more useful, while everyone else had no options at all.

There may be some special cases where size limits target options, and there may be some cases where a small world terraforming transition doesn't provide a tangible benefit, or there are fewer transitions. We'll have to see how it works out.

[DanTheTerrible]

This is all very cool, and I appreciate the effort to model real physics and planetology, but it seems a wee bit obsessive for a game system that seems aimed more at late game vanity projects than actual core gameplay.

Arioch, have you ever considered creating a completely separate game who's whole point is terraforming? Perhaps you run a terraforming company, negotiating contracts with government entities to modify worlds to have more desirable characteristics. You have to acquire resources, equipment and staff, try to make a profit and perhaps expand your operation from smaller to bigger projects. Your competitors are other terraforming companies. Occasionally the government entities insist on fighting wars which impact your business in various ways.

[gaerzi]

Hopefully the new terraforming system will have more techs behind it, some of which will be available in the early game.

Like, to take the example from that screenshot Arioch posted, showing four stages for arid->garden transformation and three stages for arid->hive transformation, perhaps the first stage of arid->garden would be available early, the second stage would be mid-early, the third stage would be mid, as would the first stage of hive transformation, then in mid-late you'd get fourth stage of garden and second stage of hive, and late you'd have last stage of hive.

Likewise in the early game you could get techs that help put a barren world part of the way into arid status, enough to make it somewhat hospitable but not enough to actually use any terraformation that starts from arid.

I'm thinking of the way in which it works in MOO1 and MOO1 clones like Dominus Galaxia. Everything is a lot more abstracted, you spread your colonies' production capacity between several domains (shipbuilding, industry development, planetary defenses, etc.) and one of them is environmental control. That means that you can start terraforming planets very early on, but what terraforming does is gradually increase your planet's max population. How much you can increase depends on your terraforming tech level, so regularly you can improve your planets again. Some hostile planet types cannot be terraformed until you get the relevant tech for them, some special planet types cannot be terraformed into until you get the relevant tech, and you also have sideway upgrades like soil enrichment that can improve a planet without changing its main biome type, just giving it a bonus.

[Arioch]

This is all very cool, and I appreciate the effort to model real physics and planetology, but it seems a wee bit obsessive for a game system that seems aimed more at late game vanity projects than actual core gameplay.

Part of the goal of the terraforming revamp is to break up transformations into smaller stages each with tangible benefits, so that the simpler ones can be unlocked much earlier in the game. These will effectively replace the current generic +1 max pop techs. And yes, there will be a variety of new techs. And we will be introducing a new playable race, the Gardeners, for whom terraforming is part of core gameplay, and who will be able to do terraforming right from the start of the game.

Arioch, have you ever considered creating a completely separate game who's whole point is terraforming? Perhaps you run a terraforming company, negotiating contracts with government entities to modify worlds to have more desirable characteristics. You have to acquire resources, equipment and staff, try to make a profit and perhaps expand your operation from smaller to bigger projects. Your competitors are other terraforming companies. Occasionally the government entities insist on fighting wars which impact your business in various ways.

I think a more detailed colony builder could be fun. Terraforming is just a means to an end, I think, rather than a goal in itself.

[Serenitis]

Something to consider away from the actual mechanics that might be beneficial: Feedback.

It would be really nice if the various races which inhabit a planet could let you know somehow if the change would be good for them, or not.
Something like a +/- indicator for the max population for each (relevant) race on a tooltip or infocard for the project would be ideal.
Even something as simple as just the race names present coloured green if they get more room, and red if they'll end up overpop would be useful.

[Arioch]

Max population is subjective to population type, so any display of max population by definition has to take this into account.

[AMX]

Max population is subjective to population type, so any display of max population by definition has to take this into account.

But the maximum for one pop type can go down, even if the overall maximum goes up - having a more detailed preview than currently would be useful.

[Arioch]

Max population is subjective to population type, so any display of max population by definition has to take this into account.

But the maximum for one pop type can go down, even if the overall maximum goes up - having a more detailed preview than currently would be useful.

I'm not sure how that would be done in a concise and usable UI. There could potentially be more than 20 different races on one planet. Maybe we could include some additional information in tooltips, but even that could break in some cases.

But I'm also not sure how useful that information would be. The max pop calculation doesn't penalize you for having sub-optimal races in the mix.