Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

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nathanebht
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Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby nathanebht » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:34 pm

Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods. Congrats on the excellent work to the mod makers. Think I might have to switch down from Hard difficulty to Normal. :(

Had a startup crash when I first installed the mods. Started a second time and everything seems to be working fine.

zolobolo
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby zolobolo » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:25 pm

You should definitively stick with Normal Difficulty especially when using the mods, otherwise the research progress of the AI is rushed ahead and it just simply jumps ahead several tiers

On Normal difficulty, there are no handouts for the AI tech progression and resource wise so their progression feels natural

The mods have resolved most of the tactical exploits and strategic weaknesses of the AI so it will put up a decent fight from start to endgame and since this behavior is not effected by the difficulty setting in any way, there is also no reason not to take Normal - it is in my book the definitive experience :)

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siyoa
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby siyoa » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:14 pm

you can edit file new_galaxy.lua in folder Setup

look for this section of the code

I think those science bonuses and discount bonuses are a bit high for mods you are using

EDIT: you need to start a new game for changes to apply (I think)

Code: Select all

    if galaxy.difficulty == 'normal'
      empire.resource_bonus = 1
      empire.extra_science=500
--      empire.global_tech_discount=.8

    elseif galaxy.difficulty == 'hard'
      empire.resource_bonus = 2
      empire.extra_science=1000
      empire.global_tech_discount=.5
      empire.global_ship_cost_mult=.5

    elseif galaxy.difficulty == 'brutal'
      empire.resource_bonus = 2
      empire.extra_science=2000
      empire.global_tech_discount=.5
      empire.global_ship_cost_mult=.5
    end
How did YOU get a key? All right, go in.

zolobolo
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby zolobolo » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:20 pm

siyoa wrote:you can edit file [i]new_galaxy.lua

Good point- forgot about the default tech discount for Normal - need to take that one out as well
The extra science I usually left in as it gave some boost to their initial expansion but was not felt later but guess it is also not needed anymore

Since the difficulty setting does not have any other effect as far as I am aware, everything except Normal can be ignored.
When considering it as a pure sandbox strategy game it leaves the AI on an equal footing and not messes with the various mechanics

nathanebht
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby nathanebht » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:15 pm

Playing the Yoral on hard difficulty. Huge, 85 star box map. My start was close to the middle of the map. Picked the Yoral as I figured this would be difficult with these 3 AI mods.

The Ashdar Imperials started a little south of me and declared war very early. Had 5 to 6 planets at the time and they had about the same.

Had to use all of my production for the war. Got close to running out of metal and money. Had 2 planets bombed. Then I started taking the Ashdar's planets. Their home planet became with-in range after talking 3 of their colonies. The didn't research Planetary Defenses so it wasn't difficult to take their planets. Did have to bomb each of them back to the stone age though.

Believe it should just be some cleanup from here. Not sure what the other AIs are doing. Think they should have started colonies near me by now.

Mistakes by the AI? Ineffective planet builds. No factories. Multiple mines and one research lab. Would guess that it never purchases a first factory to kick things off. They built way too many troopships and kept building them even after they should have started building defensive ships.

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harpy eagle
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby harpy eagle » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:48 pm

nathanebht wrote:Had to use all of my production for the war. Got close to running out of metal and money. Had 2 planets bombed. Then I started taking the Ashdar's planets. Their home planet became with-in range after talking 3 of their colonies. The didn't research Planetary Defenses so it wasn't difficult to take their planets. Did have to bomb each of them back to the stone age though.

I think one of the most visible problems the strategic AI has right now, is that once it suffers a few major losses, it's very... passive about how it rebuilds it's forces. As a result once the forces that it has been carefully building up over the course of the game are broken, it's pretty much a push-over. I guess you could describe it as brittle.

There were a number of issues that seemed to be tripping up the AI here, and the strategic AI mod started as my attempt to see if I could improve any of them. It's been a bit of a multi-layered problem in that once I think I've dealt with one issue, something else appears that seems to hold the AI back. So it's a bit of an ongoing process.

nathanebht wrote:The didn't research Planetary Defenses so it wasn't difficult to take their planets. Did have to bomb each of them back to the stone age though.

I think I may have neglected that branch of the tech tree with the AI research paths mod, thanks for the feedback.

nathanebht wrote:Mistakes by the AI? Ineffective planet builds. No factories. Multiple mines and one research lab. Would guess that it never purchases a first factory to kick things off. They built way too many troopships and kept building them even after they should have started building defensive ships.

The game really rewards you for having a plan for each world (this is a production world, this is a research world, this world is for mining, etc.). The AI doesn't plan like this, and it probably doesn't develop it's worlds as effectively as a result.

zolobolo
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby zolobolo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:13 pm

Planetary Defenses seem to be researched correctly with the mod - the example above seems to be simply due to the fact that the AI hasn't gotten around to them yet.

It is a classical case where the AI only knows the player and declares early war due to its opportunistic logic. The other two AIs are probably building up their forces in their respective regions so the game should be worth continuing

As for difficulty:
- Humans are the most difficult faction to play. Yoral are around 2-3 easiest race due to their planet preference, production bonus and wide array of tactical destroyers (including the most powerful early-mid-game ship the Torpedo Destroyer)
- Enemy Imperials are in a disadvantage as the AI does not know how to take advantage of the stargate (the primary benefit of that race)
- Boxed map contains corners- use oval shape instead do create a more open map where there are no safe corners

If you really want a challenge play as Humans against 4 Yoral with 50 stars ;) as always, Normal difficulty should suffice with the mods

While it is true that the AI has difficulty recovering from major losses, this is true for the player as well. Didn't particularly see anything where it could be further improved upon if we are not counting diplomatic actions including hiring of mercenaries. The AI does a great job at preserving its ships and building new ones. In my last game I have seen a Gremak empire being beaten time and time again and it was constantly coming back with a fleet of light and heavy cruisers and some destroyers and taking back planets from the enemy even though it had no chance to put up a real fight - works brilliantly.

Haven't seen a case where they would produce troop ships though - maybe these were issued for production before they have lost their fleet(s) and the AI decided to just finished them instead of changing to combat ships right away...

zolobolo
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby zolobolo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 pm

Below is the current state if the AI controlled Gremak empire mentioned above.

They have lost over 60% of their planets, suffered several major defeats, but as you can see, the have managed to retain two Heavy Cruisers from the time they could still build these, and have produced escort ships to pump up their fleet

They also have a very healthy stream of resources coming which would allow the continuous production of Heavy Cruisers in the Izden system

The only need for optimization I see here is the production selection in the Izden system: the AI is currently producing Scout Cruisers instead of building a shipyard and producing all sorts of combat ships from there - but this problematic is already under discussion
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nathanebht
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby nathanebht » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:22 pm

Yes, I know the Yoral are much easier than other races. Chose them on purpose as I'm playing on Hard difficulty with these 3 AI mods.

Current map. Recently killed off the Ashdar Imperials. Grabbed all of their planets.

Image

The Tinkers in green, only expanded to 2 additional systems. They have a small fleet of scouts, colony, combat ships. Perhaps they never researched the first ship range boost? Other races used fuel depots, but the Tinkers never did. Some kind of AI issue.

The Gremak in orange declared war shortly after I killed off the Ashdar. They took one of my planets in Akkeri which is next to my homeworld in Astir. I took 4 of theirs in the south of the map but they weren't built up. But now my one fleet has arrived in the map middle to take back Akkeri. Should be a good fight. My heavy destroyers against their Battle Cruisers and Assault Carriers. The Gremak seem to like capturing ships BTW.

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harpy eagle
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby harpy eagle » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:36 pm

nathanebht wrote:YThe Tinkers in green, only expanded to 2 additional systems. They have a small fleet of scouts, colony, combat ships. Perhaps they never researched the first ship range boost? Other races used fuel depots, but the Tinkers never did. Some kind of AI issue.

This is a vanilla issue. The tinkers don't know how to use their mobile outposts.

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harpy eagle
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby harpy eagle » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:37 am

nathanebht wrote:Playing the Yoral on hard difficulty. Huge, 85 star box map. My start was close to the middle of the map. Picked the Yoral as I figured this would be difficult with these 3 AI mods.

The Ashdar Imperials started a little south of me and declared war very early. Had 5 to 6 planets at the time and they had about the same.

Had to use all of my production for the war. Got close to running out of metal and money. Had 2 planets bombed. Then I started taking the Ashdar's planets. Their home planet became with-in range after talking 3 of their colonies. The didn't research Planetary Defenses so it wasn't difficult to take their planets. Did have to bomb each of them back to the stone age though.

Believe it should just be some cleanup from here. Not sure what the other AIs are doing. Think they should have started colonies near me by now.

Mistakes by the AI? Ineffective planet builds. No factories. Multiple mines and one research lab. Would guess that it never purchases a first factory to kick things off. They built way too many troopships and kept building them even after they should have started building defensive ships.

If you're willing to try it again once r22220 becomes public, I'm pretty confident the AI will put up more of a challenge with the latest version of the mod. There's been a few pretty significant bugs that have been found and fixed. If you want to try it out now though I think you're need to opt into the 'in_development' branch if you're using Steam.

nathanebht
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby nathanebht » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:19 am

Thanks for the info but no 'in_development' branch showing for me to switch to.

Too late anyway, I'm playing Battletech now. Sometimes cursing is even involved.

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harpy eagle
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Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby harpy eagle » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:00 am

nathanebht wrote:Thanks for the info but no 'in_development' branch showing for me to switch to.

Too late anyway, I'm playing Battletech now. Sometimes cursing is even involved.
'
There's a code you need to enter before it appears. But anyways have fun. I definitely want to check out Battletech myself sometime, but I think I need to upgrade my computer first.

zolobolo
Posts: 850
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:49 pm

Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby zolobolo » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:50 pm

The game sounds really interesting (being a Dawn of War 1 and Mech Warrior fan myself).

Just missing the various ground units that would give the mechs their scale... there are a few occasions where tanks pop up but not too often it seems and the game probably comes down to mechs duking it out 99% of the time, which is too bad. If they had some merc commandos and tank squadrons to command as well I would be all over that game. I think it was MW5 (Vengeance) where you had a couple of missions where tanks, bombers and armored troop transports were involved and those were always my favorite as you could actually see and feel the tactical purpose and role of the mechs :)

Getting back to SiS: I always found the implementation of small crafts lacking in other games (galciv, MoO, ES, Stellaris). It is kinda trivial but these units give a battle some scale - something to relate to if the player has ever played a space-shooter.

One thing I find great (among many changes in the tactical AI) is the way how squadrons are managed. They are no longer thrown out the hangar at turn 1 to be cannon fodder by turn 2, but are preserved, slowly loosing units over the course of the battle. It gives a huge boost to immersion

nathanebht
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:48 pm

Re: Using the Combat, Economy and Research Path AI Mods

Postby nathanebht » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:32 pm

zolobolo wrote:The game sounds really interesting (being a Dawn of War 1 and Mech Warrior fan myself).

Just missing the various ground units that would give the mechs their scale... there are a few occasions where tanks pop up but not too often it seems and the game probably comes down to mechs duking it out 99% of the time, which is too bad. If they had some merc commandos and tank squadrons to command as well I would be all over that game. I think it was MW5 (Vengeance) where you had a couple of missions where tanks, bombers and armored troop transports were involved and those were always my favorite as you could actually see and feel the tactical purpose and role of the mechs :)


Battletech is good but noticeably lacks polish in many areas.

Don't believe there are any commandos in the game. A lot of missions have enemy vehicles of various types. Many of them are quite dangerous to your mechs. There are some base attack or defense missions, these will always have turrets. A few missions you will have friendly vehicles doing stuff. Unfortunately, you don't get to control anything but your mechs. Wish you could control the friendlies!


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