Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

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386-DX
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Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby 386-DX » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:35 am

First I like to give you all a SPOILER warning.
So you're appropriately warned? Fine, let's move on... :D

I'm just playing as the Phidi Combine and I captured myself a beautiful (though slightly used ;) ) superdreadnought in the Ephelos system.
Afterwards I founded a new colony on Ephelos II (the one with the remains of an ancient colony and still functional androids).
I was informed about some new technologys that my people found on Ephelos II and I almost overread that the game was telling me about "Ancient Human Archives". Human? Hmm... so this was a human settlement once. So is that Superdreadnought in orbit also... :shock: wait... :shock: WAIT! :o IS THAT SOL I'M LOOKING AT??? :o
"What is that guy talking about?" you might think now. But just have a look at the Ephelos system yourself. I'm pretty sure it's in every game and it always looks the same:
Ephelos - Yellow Star - this might be our precious Sun.
Ephelos I - Medium Inferno World - this could be Venus
Ephelos II - Medium Glacier World - this could be Earth (it has artifacts and is mineral poor, so I guess this would fit)
Ephelos III - Small Arid World - this could be Mars
Ephelos IV - Gas Giant - doesn't this thing yell "Jupiter" at you?
"But our solar system contains more than 4 planets", you might think now. But here's how I see it: the engine of SiS only allows up to 4 planets per star system. Many stars out there might have more than 4 planets (MUCH more actually), so I would interpret this as a closeup look on the stars habitable zone (or whatever comes next to this). That would mean, the other planets are still there, the game is just not displaying them.
But wait, why would our Earth be a glacier world? Has global warming finally caused another iceage? Was Roland Emmerich's "The Day After Tomorrow" actually accurate? Well... maybe. But maybe the answer to this question is even more interesting:
Some time ago (2017) there was a discussion on this forum, about the games lore, including some interesting speculations about what might have happend to Earth. Some people had some nice ideas of how Earth was devastated during the Great War and that, if it ever appears in the game, it should be covered in craters, caused by massive orbital bombardment.
Now let's think about, what thermo nuclear weapons would actually do to our planet. Did you ever hear of a so called "Nuclear Winter"? If not, you can google it... :P
So Earth might indeed been devastated during the Great War. And a severe orbital bombardment left it as a scorched world, covered by vast glaciers, due to a global scale nuclear winter. If this is actually the case, it would've been an ingenious idea! We all actually found Earth! Many times even! And we didn't even notice it, since the well known coastlines of our homeworld are covered by ice and are therefore invisible.
What a great idea! :idea: :) :idea:
Finally I like to quote the mentioned discussion:
Arioch wrote:Or, it could be "lost" in another sense. If Sol still existed, but the star charts didn't identify the system as "Sol", and there was no current human habitation there, would you know it if you saw it?

I think I know what you hinted here. And to answer your question: Yupp! I totally did! :D 8-) :ugeek:

AMX
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby AMX » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:30 am

You might be on to something there...

Hmm, what does Ephelos mean?
It looks like it's derived from Helios, the Greek sun god... or, as the Romans called him: Sol.
:shock:

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386-DX
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby 386-DX » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:17 am

AMX wrote:You might be on to something there...

Hmm, what does Ephelos mean?
It looks like it's derived from Helios, the Greek sun god... or, as the Romans called him: Sol.
:shock:

Haha! :lol:
Believe it or not, but I had the exact same idea! :D
I didn't mention this, because I wasn't sure if this might just be a coincidence. And because my post was already too long... :D

gaerzi
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby gaerzi » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:15 am

Isn't the race random? Settling on Ephelos gives you the "construction tech" boost, which can be any of the elder races. So sometimes you can settle on Ephelos and it tells you it's an ancient Gremak or Ashdar world.


As for the name, "Ephelos" is the name of one of the varieties of helichrysum, aka "everlasting" flowers.

AMX
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby AMX » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:12 pm

gaerzi wrote:As for the name, "Ephelos" is the name of one of the varieties of helichrysum, aka "everlasting" flowers.

Yes, but what does it actually mean?

After some digging, it appears to mean "freckled", from Greek ἔφηλις (Ephelis), which is itself derived from ἐπί (epi) and, indeed, ἥλιος (Hēlios).

gaerzi
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby gaerzi » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:26 pm

Okay, I'm going to debunk this theory with cold hard facts. Sorry.

First piece of evidence: Lua state\Setup\init_planets.lua. This file contains the following notes:

Spoiler: show

Code: Select all

-- So a planet's energy budget is going to be constrained,
-- primarily, by total irradiance per m^2. (wavelength
-- distribution should also matter -- this is why relatively
-- young neutron stars are probably inhospitable at any
-- distance -- but that can be treated as a separate topic.)
--
-- Earth's total solar irradiance is 1.361 kW/m^2.
--
-- Ignoring binary systems, or variations in emittance over the
-- surface of the star, the irradiance for any planet is going
-- to be given by:
--
--   Ir = P/D^2
--
-- Where P is a constant related to the size and temperature of
-- the star (specifically, P=$\sigmaT^4R^2$).
--
-- Estimates of the Goldilocks zone around our own Sun tend to
-- be in the range of about .75-2.0 AU:
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstellar_habitable_zone
--
-- Thus, Ir inside 2.4 kW/m^2 and 0.68 kW/m^2.
--
-- Hypothetically, larger, higher gravity planets should be
-- more comfortable if they're on the cool end of this range,
-- while smaller, thinner atmosphere planets should be more
-- comfortable at the hotter extremes.  (On the theory that
-- larger planets --> thicker atmospheres --> stronger
-- greenhouse effects.)
--
-- However, the chemistry is complex here -- and far more so if
-- we imagine a wide range of hypothetical exobiology that
-- could be messing with the physical models.  More generous
-- hypothetical estimates can argue for habitable worlds at 3
-- AU equivalents -- i.e., with Ir as low as 0.15.  I.e -- with
-- the right kind of greenhouse effects, you might be able to
-- make a livable planet work out with only 1/10th the
-- available sunlight.  That seems like about the limit of
-- plausibility, however.
--
-- It's worth noticing that the solar system is big, and Ir
-- falls of at the rate of D^2.  Jupiter is already at 5.2 AU,
-- which implies that Europa's Ir is only about 50 W/m^2.
-- Here's a more complete table:
--
--   0.4 AU -- Mercury   8.5k
--   0.7 AU -- Venus      2.5k
--   1.0 AU -- Earth     1.4k
--   1.5 AU -- Mars      0.5k ( kW/m^2)
--  5.0 AU -- Jupiter   0.005k --> 50  ( W/m^2)
--   10  AU -- Saturn    15
--  20  AU -- Uranus   4
--   30  AU -- Neptune   1.5
--   40  AU -- Pluto      0.8


Pay attention to the values in this table.

Now let's take a look at Lua state\Setup\epic_systems.lua.
Spoiler: show

Code: Select all

  {
    type = 'G Yellow',
    name = 'Ephelos',
    unique = true,
    monster_hint = 'damaged_guardian_sd',
    monster=1,

    planets = {
      { type='Inferno', size='Medium', kW_m2 = 4,  },
      { type='Glacier',
        special_resources = { 'artifacts' }, size='Medium',   kW_m2 = 1,  minerals = 'Poor',
        pop = { android = 3},
        specials = {
          { 'android_encounter' },
        },
        factories=3,
      },
      { type='Arid', size='Small',   kW_m2 = .9, },
      { type='Gas Giant', size='Huge',  kW_m2 = .05 },
    },
  },


So here we have it:
Ephelos I has an irradiance of 4 kW/m², it therefore cannot correspond to Venus (2.5 kW/m²). Ephelos II has an irradiance of 1, while the Earth has an irradiance of 1.36. Ephelos III has an irradiance of 0.9, while Mars has 0.5. And finally, Ephelos IV has an irradiance of 0.05, while Jupiter has one of 0.005 (ten times smaller).

Since the irradiance values do not match, this means that the orbits do not match either.

Lastly, looking at the system in a save I had settled in it, I get the following statistics for orbital period and solar day, respectively:
Ephelos I: 123 days, 26 hours
Ephelos II: 348 days, 30 hours
Ephelos III: 377 days, 19 hours
Ephelos IV: 3292 days, 49 hours

Another save:
Ephelos I: 146 days, 39 hours
Ephelos II: 412 days, 30 hours
Ephelos III: 446 days, 19 hours
Ephelos IV: 3898 days, 14 hours

Meanwhile, for our solar system:
Venus: 225 days, 243 days (yes, a Venus day is longer than a Venus year...)
Earth: 365 days, 24 hours
Mars: 687 days, 25 hours
Jupiter: 4333 days, 10 hours

So yeah, the values are not really close.

And finally, the last proof: not only is Venus weird about its day length, but its oddity doesn't stop here: the rotation of Venus is retrograde. However, when you look at the Ephelos system, you see Ephelos I rotating in the same direction as the other three planets of the system.

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386-DX
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby 386-DX » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:26 am

gaerzi wrote:Okay, I'm going to debunk this theory with cold hard facts. Sorry.

There's no need to be sorry. ;)
Obviously my theory is completely speculative. And I don't claim anything of this to be facts.
But I kind of feel as if we're talking about two completely different things here. I'm talking about a game engine, that only allows single stars and up to 4 planets per star. You, on the other hand, are talking about irradiance values. Okay, they dont fit. I agree with that. But isn't the only thing you proved here, that the SiS engine is randomly setting the planets statistics? Please don't take this as an offense, but I think you are nitpicking over details, the games engine doesn't even seriously cover.
So the only ones, who could truly debunk this theory, are the developers. And non of them showed up to do so. At least not yet. ;)
Okay, I might be just too self-confident here, but I think, one of them would've already contradicted my theory, if it was indeed incorrect. :D

Alimaeus
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby Alimaeus » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:56 pm

Earth is already in the game its called Dirt and has one of the primitive species on it.

gaerzi
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby gaerzi » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:38 pm

386-DX wrote:You, on the other hand, are talking about irradiance values. Okay, they dont fit. I agree with that. But isn't the only thing you proved here, that the SiS engine is randomly setting the planets statistics?

Not the irradiance levels, those are hardcoded for the epic systems, and they're definitely and purposefully not compatible with the solar system's. The random statistics are generated from those irradiance levels, and I cited them to show that they're wildly incompatible with solar system orbits.

If we admit the game only represents potentially inhabitable planets and skips all those that are too close (like Mercury) or too far (like Neptunes) from the Sun, Ephelos is still a system where there's a gas giant in the Goldilocks zone. That's definitely not the case for our own. If Ephelos was Sol, then Ephelos IV would have to be, at best, the dwarf planet Ceres instead of a gas giant.

Alimaeus wrote:Earth is already in the game its called Dirt and has one of the primitive species on it.


That's even worse, Dirt is only defined as such: in the game code:

Code: Select all

    {
      type = random_draw { Garden=3, Arid=1, Glacier=1 },
      name = 'Dirt',
      arable=true,
      special = { 'natives', pop = {lummox=3, }, farms=1, },   
    },


Which means that its star and the other planets are completely random! It can be the first or the fourth, it can be orbiting a white giant or a red dwarf, there's nothing about Dirt that says it's supposed to be the Earth.


Look, you want to know where Earth is? It's simple, it's Gaia. Proof: "Gaia" is the Greek name of Earth. also "Tyl" is a three-letter name starting with a consonant, then a vowel, and ending with "l" so it's exactly the same thing as "Sol". Obviously. :P And contrarily to Ephelos, Gaia is always described as a former Human world. (After all, non-humans wouldn't know the name "Gaia".)

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386-DX
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby 386-DX » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:55 pm

Alimaeus wrote:Earth is already in the game its called Dirt and has one of the primitive species on it.

I must agree to gaerzi on that matter. How could Dirt actually be Earth? Just because of the name? Unlike Earth, Dirt is a large planet. And pretty much everything about it is random. And what would the Lummox doing on Earth? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense at all. I mean, you could also claim Pell to be Earth. Or maybe Waterless. Or even Gaia. :lol: Gaia... oh boy, what a silly idea... :lol:

gaerzi wrote:Look, you want to know where Earth is? It's simple, it's Gaia.

... :shock: ...

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yeah! It's indeed absolutely obvious! Some mad scientist (Professor Frink maybe? Or was it Professor Farnsworth? :lol: ) must've invented some kind of "de-shrinking machine" and somehow enlarged the whole planet with it. Somehow this process seems to have mutated the Humans into Gaiads. Also the enlargement process must've, somehow, caused the sun to become a red giant. And somehow all the other planets, but one, have disappeared. :D
Besides the many "somehows", this theory of yours sounds absolutely plausible to me... :lol:

gaerzi
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby gaerzi » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:53 pm

Seriously, I prefer to think that the hyperspace network is not fully repaired yet (after all, all those darn space harpies are still out there harvesting stuff) so the actual Sol is one of the unreachable stars somewhere beyond the boundaries of the in-game map.

After all, the Milky Way has over 100 billion stars, and Stars in Shadow will not let you enter that value in the galaxy size box.

zolobolo
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby zolobolo » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:34 am

I enjoyed you theory 386-DX, well done sir :)

The differences to planet size rotation speed and similar could still be explained via the moon crashing into the surface, rotation speed being altered by planetary bombardment and fusion bombs going off on the same side at the same time and though these are reallly streching it, it would be a masterfull reveal/easter egg if, after the implementation of advanced colonisation changes to the game, the player could reveal slightly different continental shapes as today plus a whole bunch of craters all around after melting all that ice on the planet :shock:

DanTheTerrible
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Re: Galactic Breaking News: Humanitys Homeworld Finally Discovered?

Postby DanTheTerrible » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:51 pm

It seems a recent patch has changed the Ephelos spawning and now it can be any star and the planet type is typically glacier or arid.


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