Orthin and torpedoes

[siyoa]

took me a bit to realize what is going on when I supposedly unlocked "Plasma Torpedoes" from defeating certain Harpy unit and nothing was showing up in tech tree ... then I realized Orthin have no access to torpedoes at all ... technically they do not have access to ships with Torpedo hardpoint, maybe we should have Plasma missiles as well ? I mean it is very easy to add it to the code, graphics (at least for me) is whole other mountain to cross

I am thinking to modify Plasma torpedoes to fit Heavy hardpoints as well, also I can capture and reuse enemy ship designs, so I still can use Torpedoes, and Plasma ones are so cool, that I don't think any civilization should be left out (I removed Heavy missiles prereq for them)

[zolobolo]

Now that you mention it they are missing torpedo tech... the reasoning behind this does not hold up though as:
1. Humans also miss any sort of ship design that can mount torpedoes but have the tech available anyway
2. Which makes sense, as these tech can be still utilized when refitting captured enemy ships
3. But is probably a leftover from the time where Bombers had torpedoes. Still: Orthin also have and had bombers and would have had torpedoes as well accordingly

So either this is a bug, or torpedoes have in fact been removed from the Orthin and been left in for Humans despite them also not being able to utilize them directly. BTW: Phidi probably also do not have any ships to mount them on

[Arioch]

Orthin don't have access to the torpedo techs because they don't have any hulls that can mount them.

[siyoa]

hmmm,

just captured ship with Fusion Torpedoes, handed to scientists ... got the tech ... as soon as I go to Tech Tree and click on AM Torpedoes (as this got unlocked for me due to having access to Fusion Torpedoes now) the game throws error at me ... something something Weaponinfo.lua something nil

as soon as I remove orthin = { locked=true }, from Heavy Missiles the game behaves normally again

I think the code needs a bit cleaning

[siyoa]

I think I found a way to fix it

added this for Fusion Torpedoes and Antimatter Torpedoes (gremak are there as they are there for Heavy Missiles as well)

Code: Select all

    race = {
      orthin = { locked=true },
      gremak = { locked=true },
    }

now Fusion Torpedoes got unlocked after scientists took captured ship apart, but Antimatter Torpedoes were not showed for me on tech tree ... the only way to get AM Torpedoes would be to capture a ship with them and reverse engineer the tech

[sven]

just captured ship with Fusion Torpedoes, handed to scientists ... got the tech ... as soon as I go to Tech Tree and click on AM Torpedoes (as this got unlocked for me due to having access to Fusion Torpedoes now) the game throws error at me ... something something Weaponinfo.lua something nil

This is definitely a bug -- do you still have the save where it happened? Could you upload it via the Options pane upload tool?

[sven]

I think I found a way to fix it

added this for Fusion Torpedoes and Antimatter Torpedoes (gremak are there as they are there for Heavy Missiles as well)

Code: Select all

    race = {
      orthin = { locked=true },
      gremak = { locked=true },
    }

now Fusion Torpedoes got unlocked after scientists took captured ship apart, but Antimatter Torpedoes were not showed for me on tech tree ... the only way to get AM Torpedoes would be to capture a ship with them and reverse engineer the tech

This fix is OK as a stopgap, but, in theory, the tech tree system should be stable even when something unusual gets unlocked for a race -- adding a bunch of extra locked=true entries should (ideally) not be necessary. I'd rather fix the lower level issue that's causing the weapon info nil error.

[sven]

I'd rather fix the lower level issue that's causing the weapon info nil error.

I think I've figured out what was going wrong, and fixed it. Basically, there was a bug in the case where the tech tree was trying to evaluate the prereq chain leading up to a tech that, under normal circumstances, would have been impossible to reach, but, due to reverse engineering, did in fact appear in the tree.

It should be fixed as of r22081 (the patch will hopefully roll out to the Steam/GoG main branches in a few days).

[sven]

took me a bit to realize what is going on when I supposedly unlocked "Plasma Torpedoes" from defeating certain Harpy unit and nothing was showing up in tech tree ...

That you received any notification at all in this case was a bug, imo. As of r22083, in the odd case where battle salvage "unlocks" technology that's not actually researchable (due to other missing prereqs), the game should leave the player blissfully ignorant that anything has occurred.

[zolobolo]

Orthin don't have access to the torpedo techs because they don't have any hulls that can mount them.

Humans and Phidi should also not have this tech available for research then

[sven]

Humans and Phidi should also not have this tech available for research then

Oh, oops. Arioch and I have redesigned the rules around missile and torpedo hardpoints a few times now, and it looks like we overlooked the Phidi and Humans last time we changed the rules. The Phidi Torpedo Destroyer, Human Missile Cruiser, and Human Battleship should all have 'Torpedo' mounts.

This 'design bug' should be fixed as of r22085.

[siyoa]

do you still need the save ?

I think I found a way to fix it

added this for Fusion Torpedoes and Antimatter Torpedoes (gremak are there as they are there for Heavy Missiles as well)

Code: Select all

    race = {
      orthin = { locked=true },
      gremak = { locked=true },
    }

now Fusion Torpedoes got unlocked after scientists took captured ship apart, but Antimatter Torpedoes were not showed for me on tech tree ... the only way to get AM Torpedoes would be to capture a ship with them and reverse engineer the tech

This fix is OK as a stopgap, but, in theory, the tech tree system should be stable even when something unusual gets unlocked for a race -- adding a bunch of extra locked=true entries should (ideally) not be necessary. I'd rather fix the lower level issue that's causing the weapon info nil error.

I am not sure what your fix is, but I actually like this "stopgap" ... the fact that I reverse engineer Fusion Torpedoes should not unlock path to Antimatter Torpedoes automatically ... so having that locked=true is good as it prevents you from researching it out of the blue ... I mean, the logic can go both ways, so you can say that once you understand concept of the torpedo, material is just a technicality ... and you can go even further, that once you like torpedoes, you should be able research a technology, that adds torpedo hardpoints to your ships, but I don't thing we are that far ... it definitely is on my todo mod list, though ... unlocking hardpoints through research

[sven]

do you still need the save ?

no -- i think i managed to replicate the error myself. but thanks.

that once you like torpedoes, you should be able research a technology, that adds torpedo hardpoints to your ships, but I don't thing we are that far ... it definitely is on my todo mod list, though ... unlocking hardpoints through research

this is an interesting idea. what kinds of tech-gated hardpoint unlocks are you imagining?

[siyoa]

that once you like torpedoes, you should be able research a technology, that adds torpedo hardpoints to your ships, but I don't thing we are that far ... it definitely is on my todo mod list, though ... unlocking hardpoints through research

this is an interesting idea. what kinds of tech-gated hardpoint unlocks are you imagining?

one thing definitely would be what we are discussing here, technology that the race normally doesn't have access to, but if they acquire it, they should be able to use it

other than that, I just like the idea of a single ship being more and more powerful as you advance in technology, one way is to keep equipping with more advanced weaponry, the other can be to open more slots/hardpoint for weapons/systems ... I don't have anything specific in my mind yet, I just like the opportunities you can get, if there is provision for it (adding hardpoints) in the code

[siyoa]

I think MOO worked something like, each ship class had total mass of equipment you can add there, there wasn't equivalent of hardpoints (not direct one for sure, there was limited amount of slots, but that was maybe more UI limit) ... if you equipped less that total mass, your ship was faster ... there was a relation between ship speed and its mass

anyway, what am I trying to say ... hardpoints, in my view, are little bit too limiting, if we can add them (or remove/change) it will open up more design options