Help with Humans

[emky]

Can I get some tips playing as human? I fairly consistently win with the other factions on normal, but humans consistently lose. (Though I have won.) Especially with larger maps or more factions, humans on normal still puzzle me. They start behind with a disadvantage, and the giant diplomacy malus they get with all factions constantly has me ganged up against. Their half maintenance cost perk doesn't make as much of a difference as I thought... They don't have enough other perks I find to get enough ships for it to be that noticed. The humans need some sort of colonist perk!

I also find Gremak (the other species with no yield bonuses and also a diplomacy malus) challenging, but not quite as hard. Their ships are nice, and Information is more useful to me than Beam research bonuses.

[zolobolo]

Humans have a large number of disadvantages yes and are bar far the hardest faction to play

The design idea AFAIK was for them to be strong in boarding heavy fleet layouts which they are with Assault Cruisers and Marines and Missile Cruisers but you need to survive long enough to get these ships which is past 100 turns

So survival in the first inital 100 turns lokks like this for me:
1. Do not under any circumstance waste resources and time on Light Cruiser Build destroyers (with rokcets if you can afford the metal)
2. Take out Harpy group and nest at all costs to get hte much needed resarch boost
3. Cosy up to a neighbour ASAP when you see them with whatver helps to get closer to them. This will not only secure a border for you but ensures an ally in the upcoming war which is very likely with Humans
4. Create a dedicated production and a dedicated research world: you will need the output of such specialised worlds (min 3 labs and factories each)
5. Use City Planning wherver possible to krank up pop count - Humans have a reproduction rate and moral bonus here
6. Keep upgrading your starting Heavy Cruiser: this is the onyl ship that can keep the other factiosn from rushing you as it provides valauble deterrence

Once you got to Assault Cruisers you cna put the prodution of these on your best production world to endless: you can never have enough Human Assault Cruisers. These not only the best boarding vessels but are also one of the few (besdies Gremak Designs) that can also siege worlds meaning you can use a fleet of these ships to do anything: anti-shipping; bombardment and invading planets

[PrivateHudson]

One Humanity advantage is ability to pirate the pirates. Boarding pods and EMP missiles aren't a lot of research, Low Orbit Refits tech (to slap B.pods on starting Heavy Cruiser) is already there, and Xenoengineering not needed against Death Hand. If lucky, can commandeer a couple free colonizers this way. But Humans, of course, depend on lucky start as no one. I too lose with them more often than with any other race. They're here for the challenge!

[emky]

Hm. I've never used EMP missiles before. Or noticed they had no deep prerequisites. I'll have to check that out. Thanks for the idea!

[emky]

5. Use City Planning wherver possible to krank up pop count - Humans have a reproduction rate and moral bonus here

I don't think I've seen this listed anywhere?

[zolobolo]

5. Use City Planning wherver possible to krank up pop count - Humans have a reproduction rate and moral bonus here

I don't think I've seen this listed anywhere?

The Morale boost is listed when selecting the pop during City Planning is active, it seems to provide a +20 boost to morale
The morale boost can be useful if the slavery is being used with Humans as it can prevent the ocasional rebellions thereof

There doesnt seem to be any pop reproduction boonus looking at it right now - I thought I saw that in the past but is not the case sorry

[zolobolo]

One Humanity advantage is ability to pirate the pirates. Boarding pods and EMP missiles aren't a lot of research, Low Orbit Refits tech (to slap B.pods on starting Heavy Cruiser) is already there, and Xenoengineering not needed against Death Hand. If lucky, can commandeer a couple free colonizers this way. But Humans, of course, depend on lucky start as no one. I too lose with them more often than with any other race. They're here for the challenge!

Yes they serve well as the maximum challenge faction so much so that if they get an archship they might need to get some otehr disadvatnage on top of it to keep up the levle of challenge

The issue with Boarding Pods is that they are both:
1. Crazy powerful (no matter who is using them - cloacked Gremak boarding pod cruisers are quite game breaking for example and used to use these to take over everything in site including loitering Super dreds)
2. Utterly unused by the AI

Meaning using them is almost a guaranteed win for any faction in almost any circumstance
As such I have proposed to have Boarding Pods function like missiles in that they could be intercepted via PD, AM and fighters
Or remove them from the game to not tempt the player

[emky]

As such I have proposed to have Boarding Pods function like missiles in that they could be intercepted via PD, AM and fighters
Or remove them from the game to not tempt the player

Isn't that how they work? When you have tank/marine in your berth, it's a 4th type of smallcraft that goes out and attacks the people bar rather than the damage bars?

[zolobolo]

As such I have proposed to have Boarding Pods function like missiles in that they could be intercepted via PD, AM and fighters
Or remove them from the game to not tempt the player

Isn't that how they work? When you have tank/marine in your berth, it's a 4th type of smallcraft that goes out and attacks the people bar rather than the damage bars?

Yes that is how shutles work

Boarding pods are an eraly game module that have 0 range and cannot be intercepted.

They are effective as they can be researched early on, can be placed on almost any hull (require only a medium mount not a berth), are cheap to produce and have no counter.
Boarding itself is one of the most effetive means of combat in its own right even before this particular weapon as sabotage ignores both 100% armor and shields and this is also completely immune to ship facing directions

[Dragar]

It's really the last resort of the out-teched! A good way to snag some tech, too.

I'm not sure if boarding is too strong or just the AI defends badly against it.

[Serenitis]

Humans have some rad abilities:
They get early access to EMP missiles (as mentioned) which are incredibly good just for being fusion-level missiles. As well as cheaper access to Xeno Engineering.
The half cost for ship maintenance is good, and applies to all ships built or captured. This gives you a lot of leeway to build up money to buy things or do maint. heavy stuff like build up bad planets early.
Thier colony ship is the best in the game since it's the only one that doesn't require a station to build it.
They start with level 2 farms unlocked.
And they don't need Xeno Engineering to capture/absorb pirate ships.

Farming is the key to success though. You really need to find a high fertility world and spec it into farming just so you can get enough free slots on your other worlds to spec them into industry/science.
And where it gets hard is that Humans are not guaranteed to have access to such a world since they start with a random 'draw' mechanic that chooses between arid/glacier/island.
Not getting a fertile world early on makes things hard.
On the other hand, if you're lucky enough to start next to a useful minor race, then you can see some really great starts.
The RNG is the Humans worst enemy.

Another thing to consider is that you're going to need research, probably more than any other race since you start behind.
Beeline the second tier of labs as best as you can manage, which helps quite a bit (and unlocks better armour/factories).
Along with labs wherever you can afford/fit them, it's also worth making an outpost design with science stations and just vomit those over as many planets as you can afford.
The 'extra' money you get from paying less for ships helps with this.

1. Do not under any circumstance waste resources and time on Light Cruiser

I disagree.
The Human CL is one of the most adaptable and versatile ships in the game, and is well worth using.
Just being able to fit it out as a boarding ship without giving up much in the way of firepower or defences makes it a far better choice for early muscle than the destroyer.
It has double the crew so it's boarding attacks are far more effective, it's thicker armour makes it much tougher in battle, and can fit fuel tanks without compromising defence meaning you can use them to 'collect' pirate ships earlier, which infates your fleet and provides more deterrence.

I rarely build destroyers when playing Human, but I still use them quite a bit since I get so many from pirates.
Think of this as undocumented parallel construction - the pirates build DDs, and you build CLs to capture them all with.

Yes the CA (Heavy Cruiser) can also do this and is also better at it (definitely refit your CA!), but that's locked behind research that is non-trivial to do at that stage of the game. The CL is there right from the start, all you need is a station, which you'll need anyway to build outposts.

[zolobolo]

1. Do not under any circumstance waste resources and time on Light Cruiser

I disagree.
The Human CL is one of the most adaptable and versatile ships in the game, and is well worth using.
Just being able to fit it out as a boarding ship without giving up much in the way of firepower or defences makes it a far better choice for early muscle than the destroyer.
It has double the crew so it's boarding attacks are far more effective, it's thicker armour makes it much tougher in battle, and can fit fuel tanks without compromising defence meaning you can use them to 'collect' pirate ships earlier, which infates your fleet and provides more deterrence.

I also recommend not using Boarding module at all as its an instant-win module with any race at nearly any difficulty (its the largest exploit corrently in the game). Cheap and early tech, cheap production, no counter, no ammo, no energy, no protection/mitigation with shields/armor and can both capture and raid the first being the most off-balance action in game and the latter is much more effectvie then any conventional weapon AND the AI will never ever use it to do anything to try to evade the player using it

Without a boarding module the Human LC is a waste: its way too expensive and metal heavy for escort role, and its unfit for siege role due to the lack of heavy mount. Cannot carry troops, and while it could carry warheads or large amount of medium mounts both are research intensive to get and when playing humans: by the time the player gets the necessary warheads and reactor its already an otudated hull due to both Assault Cruiser and Missile Cruiser each being much more effective in their specialised roles

I almost alway skip Human LC entirely and if I have the tech and metal to produce cruisers I go straight for Assault and Missile carriers - they are more cost and metal effective and both are excellent in their roles while the LC is passable at best

For around the same production and metal cost the Assault Carrier bosts two heavy mounts, a Berth and two shields
Meaning that single design can siege, capture planets and ships and even put up a decent fight against other ships
LC cannot siege or capture and in combat it needs to get in closer as the Assault Cruiser which offsets its equal armor and shield rating

[Serenitis]

No-one is claiming the CL is better than a CA (Heavy), or CM (Missile), or LST (Assault).
I am specifically saying that the CL is 'good enough' to use until you get hold of those hulls, and avoiding using it because it's not 'optimal' is not something I really understand, because it's 'good enough' to get the job done and a whole lot more capable than a destroyer. Which is the only other option available at that time.
And even when those better ships come along, those CLs you built are still 'good enough' to be repurposed into other roles.

Also, CL can siege just fine: Cover it in EMP missiles and ammo racks. Don't need anything other than 2 low-cost techs.
I'd much rather attack planets with a carpet of missiles and get it over with in a couple of turns than plink away at it with mass drivers for an eternity.

Boarding is still cool and good tho.
We're all different etc...

[zolobolo]

I am saying that Human LC is not and efficient use of resources (wasteful)
It can be used yes and the player can win doing so but my argument was this:
1. Humans start with a low production output
2. By the time prod output is high enough to roll out LCs fast enough to be worth their metal cost, other designs are already available
3. Other designs are way more cost effective

Sieging usually works with a standard Heavy Laser as well - The entire long range siege of planets is arguable an exploit so one might want to skip it as well of course if not for the micromanagemetn it involves

EMP cannot defeat bases and planets AFAIK - never tried as the effect should be systems only and actual damage is still needed to be dealt out for long enough to win and not sure the munition can hold out for that long. Volume defeats everything of course and 2-3 LCs with EMP and laser can defeat a tier 1 tech level PD but a Single Assault Carrier can do the same with Heavy Laser

Boarding is fine: I use it as well as well as the AI
Boarding with BoardingPod is OP and the AI will never use it against the player so its a player bonus - If someone is playing Humans it might be for the challenge which is not really there if BoardingPods enter the field

This is all my opinion of course: the parameters can warry with the game setup: amount of stars, distance, amount and type of races
I almost always play with around 100 stars in elipse and all the factions - if distance between stars is longer then normal, then the AI has a hard time getting to the player for example and leaves much more time for teching up and producing infra and even less efficient ships to matter: in that case military power index is more important to keep hostilities away then the actual performance in various combat scenarios