Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

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nweismuller
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Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby nweismuller » Mon May 27, 2019 9:25 pm

Do Scavengers and Gaiads count as 'discontent populations' for purposes of improvement staffing? If they don't, I suspect at least the Gaiads- who 'do not participate in alien economies' probably should.

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Arioch
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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby Arioch » Mon May 27, 2019 9:50 pm

We're in the process of figuring out how to better implement the Unruly races. Whether they end up being able to staff buildings or not will depend on where the balance ends up.

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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby sven » Mon May 27, 2019 10:07 pm

Arioch wrote:We're in the process of figuring out how to better implement the Unruly races. Whether they end up being able to staff buildings or not will depend on where the balance ends up.


That said, as of the current dev builds, the two 'unruly' races (Scavengers and Gaiads) do contribute to improvement staffing requirements.

From a lore perspective, I think there's certainly an argument to be made that several of the minor races shouldn't contribute to improvement staffing. (Should threshers really be able to staff your factories? Should Lummox be able to staff labs?) From a game design perspective, however, I think it's probably wise to be sparing with how often we deploy the "does not contribute to staffing" mechanic. That the staffing mechanics even exist is something that it's hard to communicate in the UIs, and as we start adding exceptions and special cases to a rule that's already fairly obscure, the game becomes that much harder to understand.

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siyoa
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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby siyoa » Tue May 28, 2019 12:59 am

if you ask me, what I find odd about these minor races is that they somehow mange to keep they population at 3 for hundreds of turns ... and then the moment major race colonizes the planet, they realize that they want to start multiplying like rabbits :shock:
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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby nathanebht » Tue May 28, 2019 1:31 am

Would be better if you could relocate all of the minor races. Just because your a plant doesn't mean we can't figure out a way to ship you. :lol:

We should also be able to attack a planet with a minor race to clear it out before we colonize it. Might be difficult with early tech though.

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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby nweismuller » Tue May 28, 2019 2:09 am

siyoa wrote:if you ask me, what I find odd about these minor races is that they somehow mange to keep they population at 3 for hundreds of turns ... and then the moment major race colonizes the planet, they realize that they want to start multiplying like rabbits :shock:


I sort of figured that was due to the transition from either a pre-industrial or precarious early industrial society to one with advanced medical and agricultural technology crashing the death rate. Not living on the ragged edge of survival does wonders for potential population growth, and, unlike current First World societies, the expanding empires of SiS have the sort of society that encourages positive population growth.

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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby akkamaddi » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:51 am

My account still works! :D

I hope this isn't necro-posting.

I started playing again, and happily found that I can carry my personal tweaks and races into the game. My empire is a zoo. ;)

Pardon my ignorance on the original topic, but I thought discontent races didn't work? Or was Nweismuller referring to a "socially disconnected" race, and not "unhappy and nearly revolting"?

Gaiads do not produce any economy or industry on their own. I'm not sure if this acts as a multiplier for factory output. So, a planet full of Gaiads produce corn cobs and test tubes, but no hammers or coins.

To Sven's post: I think there could be a simple fix that the "primitive" tag disqualifies a race from staffing labs. You could also assign or not tags for WorkLab, WorkFactory, WorkFarm, etc, to each race, but thinking about it, I see how that could make both coding and population management a chore.

As for moving the primitives, I think I've suggested the techs "padded transports" and "flower pots" that allow transport of unruly and sessile races, respectively.

And just getting rid of them, why not slavery? It may look a bit cheap, but a slightly darkened image with a shackle image overly could be used to indicate slaves of any race. If you don't like the Pell or Scavengers, just enslave them and experiment them into extinction. (Enslaving an unruly race should be fun.) I know there was something mentioned about primitive races not making good slaves or being protected under old treaties, but do you really think the Gremak would leave a population of Lummox alone because they are an endangered species?

For the Tinkers, I've suggested in the past that assimilating a minor race could just produce a Tinker, and there is not enough medical information to unassimilate them, just like you can't de-harmonize a tinker to the original race. (You're basically using Lummox and Pell parts to make a new Tinker.)

There is also the possibility of adding an "ethnic cleanse" action on a planet. Each round, two pop units (or portion thereof) gets deleted, and they have an extremely high chance of revolting. For Gremak, each round of an ethnic cleanse produces 10 food units and increases happiness by +4/-1 per round. (I'm still surprised Gremak don't have a "Render to Food' option for slaves.)

Also, don't forget, if you don't like a particular minor race, it's not difficult to edit out the planet that spawns them.

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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby Arioch » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:10 am

akkamaddi wrote:Pardon my ignorance on the original topic, but I thought discontent races didn't work? Or was Nweismuller referring to a "socially disconnected" race, and not "unhappy and nearly revolting"?

Gaiads do not produce any economy or industry on their own. I'm not sure if this acts as a multiplier for factory output. So, a planet full of Gaiads produce corn cobs and test tubes, but no hammers or coins.

Discontent population don't yield any basic resources, but because of the way the population is counted in regard to building staffing, they do staff buildings. I think this is incorrect, and I think there's a fix for this in the works.

We are planning to add some interesting characteristics to the unruly races (Gaiads, Scavengers, Viscid) to help make them seem like an investment rather than a pure nuisance. Though they are certainly supposed to be a nuisance. They are placed on choice planets in lieu of some kind of orbital defenders specifically to reduce the value of certain plum planets.

akkamaddi wrote:And just getting rid of them, why not slavery? It may look a bit cheap, but a slightly darkened image with a shackle image overly could be used to indicate slaves of any race. If you don't like the Pell or Scavengers, just enslave them and experiment them into extinction. (Enslaving an unruly race should be fun.) I know there was something mentioned about primitive races not making good slaves or being protected under old treaties, but do you really think the Gremak would leave a population of Lummox alone because they are an endangered species?

We specifically don't allow you to enslave or exterminate undesirable native species because they are specifically meant to be a disadvantage to an otherwise very advantageous world. There is also the issue that we would need to add additional "enslaved" art assets for each minor race, but that is a secondary consideration. If you could simply enslave and execute every sub-optimal native race, then there would be no point in having them in the game at all.

We might add an extermination option if we are able to add a planned environmental damage model along with our revamped terraforming system. But this is still in the early stages, so no promises.

That said, we are talking about making some of the native races enslave-able, where it makes sense (Lummox, Wrem, Algorians, Pell). This consideration also applies to Harmonization, which in game terms is more or less the same thing.

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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby nweismuller » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:55 am

Arioch wrote:That said, we are talking about making some of the native races enslave-able, where it makes sense (Lummox, Wrem, Algorians, Pell). This consideration also applies to Harmonization, which in game terms is more or less the same thing.


How about Spice Mongers, Threshers, and Tarib? None of those are 'nuisance' natives, and I can't see why any would be less enslaveable than Pell.

Speaking of harmonisation, it seems a little odd that when, as a non-Tinker, I conquer a Tinker world, the dissidents of a non-Tinker species that show up somehow deharmonise themselves without the benefit of the cybernetic organisms tech. It's really weird that I actually benefit by getting some of them freed from their 'borging early.

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Re: Discontent populations, staffing, Scavengers, and Gaiads

Postby akkamaddi » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:32 am

Arioch wrote:We are planning to add some interesting characteristics to the unruly races (Gaiads, Scavengers, Viscid) to help make them seem like an investment rather than a pure nuisance. Though they are certainly supposed to be a nuisance. They are placed on choice planets in lieu of some kind of orbital defenders specifically to reduce the value of certain plum planets.


If you can keep Scavengers happy, They make an amazing workforce.

And I understand the thinking. If you dig in my mod posted long ago, the Bound Spectrals are the same way. I've seen AI empires land on that planet and get wiped out. Actually, I would like to figure out how to copy Capricious and make "Neurotic", so only bad modifiers are doubled.

We specifically don't allow you to enslave or exterminate undesirable native species because they are specifically meant to be a disadvantage to an otherwise very advantageous world.


Yeah, but... Gremak + Primitives = Nom Nom Nom ?

Viscids, I can understand that it wouldn't work for them. For Scavengers and Gaiads, I think a very high chance of revolting would be good.

Also, do Gremak on a diet eat Pell as a "salad"?

There is also the issue that we would need to add additional "enslaved" art assets for each minor race, but that is a secondary consideration.


Oh, I remember the rendering engine. :cry: Copied from the appendices of the Necronomicon. :lol:
That's why I suggested the shackle overlay.

If you could simply enslave and execute every sub-optimal native race, then there would be no point in having them in the game at all.


Ummmmmmmmm... Most of human history is exactly like that, sadly enough. If a race will enslave other species, then I don't see how such a race would look at Algorian or Lummox and say "Oh, no, they're too primitive."

It could also be a game configuration option: Protection of Minors. Give the minor races that can be enslaved the flag "MinorSlave=True". Have a description pop-up that Protection of Minors enforces the galactic treaties protecting non-stellar races from slave harvesting. If it is set to "False", as in you do not respect it, then MinorSlave=enslavable. That way the player will decide if the run-through will involve not enslaving the primitives, as is the case now, or if they will be ruthless and grind all other sentients into dust.

That said, we are talking about making some of the native races enslave-able, where it makes sense (Lummox, Wrem, Algorians, Pell). This consideration also applies to Harmonization, which in game terms is more or less the same thing.


I am really looking forward to seeing the Harmonized assets.


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