Amusing bug

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wminsing
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Amusing bug

Postby wminsing » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:13 am

So I ran into a funny but still serious bug today. Defending planet against a Yoral assault, all of the Yoral ships were missile armed, while my planet also had missiles (new feature of planetary defense system?). Eventually the last surviving Yoral ship and my planet had run out of missiles. So, the Yoral ship was dancing around but we couldn't touch each other. I ran the combat for another dozen or so turns but it didn't end. There probably needs to some sort of 'end combat' condition when neither side is capable of hurting each other.

-Will

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sven
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Re: Amusing bug

Postby sven » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:16 am

yeah, the ai's are doing this to each other as well. which is causing "failed to resolve combat at ..." errors in between turns. um, interesting little side effect of the missile changes. i'll get it sorted out soonish :oops:

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sven
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Re: Amusing bug

Postby sven » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:00 am

So, as of r11972 (currently marked 'dev') there should be a working "cease fire" mechanic, which gives both sides the ability offer the other a voluntary draw. AIs fighting AIs are forced to start offering each other draws after 30 turns, so, any AI vs. AI battle should reliably resolve.

Human players, however, currently have no way of offering or accepting draws, and even if they did, waiting for the AI to hit its 30-turn threshold would be tedious. The ideal solution, as you say, is to have some piece of arbitration logic that figures out if both sides have reached a point where they're unable or unwilling to continue, and then ends the combat in that case. But that's hard logic to write -- one side can almost always "attack" the other by moving one of it's ships to point blank range, and hitting self-destruct. And, indeed, in some cases, that's an important strategy.

In the particular case you've encountered, the right solution is actually probably not for an arbitrator to end the fight, but, for the Yoral's AI to realize that the "raid" is complete, and voluntarily retreat all of it's ships.

There's still a chance of something like this happening with, say, a raiding fleet where one of the attackers has been immobilized, but not destroyed. But it should be a very rare case. If and when it does happen, one way to deal with it will probably be to close the battle from the game menu, then hit "end turn". That will force the battle to auto-resolve, and with an AI in charge of your planet, you and the Yoral will be able to offer and accept cease fire agreements.

In future, we should have a an "auto-resolve" button visible someplace obvious inside the battle HUD, and hitting that, during a stalemated fight, would effectively end the battle in the same way as the close + end-turn strategy.

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Big Imp
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Re: Amusing bug

Postby Big Imp » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:22 am

wminsing wrote:So I ran into a funny but still serious bug today. Defending planet against a Yoral assault, all of the Yoral ships were missile armed, while my planet also had missiles (new feature of planetary defense system?). Eventually the last surviving Yoral ship and my planet had run out of missiles. So, the Yoral ship was dancing around but we couldn't touch each other. I ran the combat for another dozen or so turns but it didn't end. There probably needs to some sort of 'end combat' condition when neither side is capable of hurting each other.

-Will


And here is a thought, it doesn't seem reasonable that you should run out of missiles before or at the same time as a ship does. You have a whole planet full of resources where you can stockpile e.a missiles. The logic as I see it is ships have a limited number of missiles before they have to restock, but a planet can build 10/10.000 fold more missiles than a ship can carry. :mrgreen: :idea:
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Arioch
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Re: Amusing bug

Postby Arioch » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:24 am

Big Imp wrote:And here is a thought, it doesn't seem reasonable that you should run out of missiles before or at the same time as a ship does. You have a whole planet full of resources where you can stockpile e.a missiles. The logic as I see it is ships have a limited number of missiles before they have to restock, but a planet can build 10/10.000 fold more missiles than a ship can carry.


Ground defense bases are meant to be cheap stopgap defenses. Because missiles are currently a bit overpowered, ground bases are ridiculously effective for their cost (which is currently one-third the cost of a destroyer). If ground bases had unlimited missile reloads, they would be even more insane.

The current build should have a fix for the "out of ammunition stalemate" bug.

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Big Imp
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Re: Amusing bug

Postby Big Imp » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:49 am

Arioch wrote:
Big Imp wrote:And here is a thought, it doesn't seem reasonable that you should run out of missiles before or at the same time as a ship does. You have a whole planet full of resources where you can stockpile e.a missiles. The logic as I see it is ships have a limited number of missiles before they have to restock, but a planet can build 10/10.000 fold more missiles than a ship can carry.


Ground defense bases are meant to be cheap stopgap defenses. Because missiles are currently a bit overpowered, ground bases are ridiculously effective for their cost (which is currently one-third the cost of a destroyer). If ground bases had unlimited missile reloads, they would be even more insane.

The current build should have a fix for the "out of ammunition stalemate" bug.


They might be cheap but you can bombard them out of the sky.
It is not insane to have unlimited missiles or close to it since you can manufacture the missiles on the planet(Looking at it logically). But this is all semantics regarding the game.
So it makes no sense that you have limited amount of missiles on a planet, since you have all the resources on a planet.
Ground defense are the last line of defense before you conquer a planet.
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sven
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Re: Amusing bug

Postby sven » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:04 pm

Arioch wrote:
Big Imp wrote:And here is a thought, it doesn't seem reasonable that you should run out of missiles before or at the same time as a ship does. You have a whole planet full of resources where you can stockpile e.a missiles. The logic as I see it is ships have a limited number of missiles before they have to restock, but a planet can build 10/10.000 fold more missiles than a ship can carry.


Ground defense bases are meant to be cheap stopgap defenses. Because missiles are currently a bit overpowered, ground bases are ridiculously effective for their cost (which is currently one-third the cost of a destroyer). If ground bases had unlimited missile reloads, they would be even more insane.


I think I agree with both of you :) Ground bases certainly should be more expensive, relative to destroyers. But, giving planets a larger missile capacity than ships (as is done in MOO2), makes sense from a couple different angles. As BigImp points out, the world-building makes sense. But, perhaps more importantly, one of the most thorny "stalemate" situations is the case where missile-armed ships are attacking a missile-armed planet. I think giving planets extra missiles would make stalemated tactical battles far rarer.


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