Influence generating beside embassies

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echo2361
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Influence generating beside embassies

Postby echo2361 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:46 pm

So I've recently returned to this game because I got an email about helping out with beta testing as the new DLC is approaching. I've been enjoying myself playing SiS as always, but I ran across a scenario that I've never encountered before which is causing me problems.

To start off the game I freed some human slaves from pirates and made contact with their colony. I set up an embassy and saw they would agree to join my empire fairly quickly. As soon as I generated enough influence from the embassy I spent it to integrate the humans into my empire, leaving me with 1 influence point. Since then I've established contact the other major empires and I've realized I have no way to conduct diplomacy with them. I can't establish an embassy with any of them since I lack the influence. I tried briefly looking through the new tech tree, nicely done BTW, but nothing caught my eye.

Please let me know if I've missed something somewhere, but is the only way for someone to generate influence through embassies? If so, my game is finished diplomatically which is sad because the Orthin seem to like me and I was going to work with them against my hated cousins, the Ashdar Imperials.

Ashbery76
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby Ashbery76 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:03 pm

Yeah this is an issue.You get little early but then it gets out of control later and makes the mechanics useless as you basically dictate the diplomacy to all the other races.

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Arioch
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby Arioch » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:48 am

An important way to earn chunks of influence is in responding favorably to diplomatic events. There are unfortunately not as many of these events in the game yet as we would like, and that can leave you in a position in which you have no influence and no way to get more. We probably need some kind of active way to generate influence, but we have to be careful with this; if influence becomes too easy to get, then it is useless as a mechanic. We need to fix the barter system, and we could probably establish a mechanism by which gifts generate some influence (with diminishing returns). But the main fix to this problem is in fleshing out the diplomacy system.

If wait, and keep a strong enough military to deter other factions from attacking you, the chances are good that they will eventually ask for favors (which reward you with ~25 influence), or will offer to enter into diplomatic agreements for free. But it is true that right now you have to be careful about spending all your influence if you don't yet have any way to get more.

wminsing
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby wminsing » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:12 pm

A simple mechanic might be allow players to purchase influence with cash (ie, bribes) but with a steeply escalating cost (you require increasingly more grease for those skids) and/or some sort of relations penalty (it's known that your diplomatic corps is corrupt).

-Will

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echo2361
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby echo2361 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:35 pm

Thanks for the heads up regarding the diplomatic events. I haven't had any pop up yet but I'll keep an eye out for them as I continue with my game. I'm strong enough that no one sees me as easy picking so hopefully I attract some allies naturally since I've managed to lock myself out of normal influence generation.

I agree that another method of influence generation would be nice, but it would have to be carefully controlled or limited. I've bee killing a lot of pirates lately. Maybe for every pirate ship or colony I defeat I could earn a set amount of influence?

Would allow players to "farm" influence if needed at the cost of potentially losing combat vessels to gain favor with other empires through pirate eradication.

Wyvern
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby Wyvern » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:53 pm

I'm not certain of this, but - at least in my experience - I've only gotten random diplomatic events when I've had embassies established. Edit: On the other hand, sometimes - especially with the Phidi - it's possible to start off friendly enough to establish an embassy at zero cost.

Personally, I'm kindof hoping that espionage will build off the existing influence system, and provide some late-game things to do when you've got excess points - as well as potentially ways to gain points even without an embassy.

I could see events like, say, "We've found evidence that some Yoral spies are trying to steal heavy railgun technology - what should we do?" - and you could gain influence by simply letting them have heavy railguns, or maybe an influence-neutral option that redirects the spies to some lesser technology, or spend influence to shut the attempt down entirely. Or spend -lots- of influence to set them up as double-agents that are actually in your employ...

Or, maybe you recently captured a planet from the Ashdar Imperials; "We've discovered one of the emperor's family was visiting Sirius Prime when our troops moved in..." with options ranging from "hunt them down and kill them" to "offer to transport them back to their empire".

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Arioch
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby Arioch » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:05 pm

You may be right... I think most of the requests require an embassy.

We have a long list of possible diplomatic events; they just need to be implemented.

Uncle_Joe
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby Uncle_Joe » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:26 pm

If you want to make Influence come and go, put an expiration on Trade and Research treaties. Maybe every 30 turns or so they have to be re-initiated.

Maybe put in a building or tech or something that generates a few points/turn to provide a steady income?

zolobolo
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby zolobolo » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:42 pm

Uncle_Joe wrote:Maybe put in a building or tech or something that generates a few points/turn to provide a steady income?

I think the Phidi have such resource generation on their home planet - makes sense for them as they are diplomacy based

If we get hole bunch of events generating infulence that should suffice as the issue is not that we do not have enough enfluence. We have more then enough and what can be spent on diplomacy. The issue mentioend was an early game effect which is covered by events.

Just make these events numerous enough so that they do not repeat every single game and dependant on the galaxy context so that it flows organically with the game.

Any influence generating building would shower us with even more of hsi resource that is not needed. If we were to have more uses for influence such as: hiring mercs, coclonising planets in star systems claimed by other empires or paying off Marauders (instead of money), then it would make sense to have a resource generating planet for this but otherwise I think its an overkill

Expiration on treateas leaves a bad taste in my mouth due to recent CIV games :) There it has lead to unnecessary re-issuing of the trade-routes which was tedious due to its frequency and triviality

zolobolo
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby zolobolo » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:26 am

How abouth if some of the influence generating events only occur if there is a cscience station modul equipped to the ship and the ship explores the system the first time.

This would have numerous benefits:
- Immersive role-playing element with diplomatic events for minor races a-al Star Trek (maybe soem of the events always occur if a minor race is found with and the module is there
- Description in the modul would indicate to the player that these events can and will happen allowing them to exercise some control if they wish to generate influence
- It is by it nature limited to early-game thus embassies can be established and afterwards there is more then enough influence as is
- It would be an organic and logical use for the modul which most of the player probably avoid currently, but get them to the taste of generating science via ships and stations as its already existing secondary effect

The same could be even considered for starbases when having the module (missions a-la Babylon5) but like mentioned above, since the early boost to influence is only needed in early game, it is not a perfect fit (e.g.: diplomats of two factions known to the player have travelled to this station to sign a trade treate, but an assasin tried to eliminate one of them. Player should decide which side to support during the inverstigation gaining good relationship with them, bad with the other AND paying influence OR: not support any of them directly and thus conducting and inpartial investigation and gaining influence)

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faijeya
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Re: Influence generating beside embassies

Postby faijeya » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:30 pm

The influence doesn't make any sense and it's natural, because diplomatic interactions do not hold much sense either.
As long as any race you have any treaty but an alliance with can declare they suddenly need your worlds now, it's kinda doomed and can serve only as a forced peace option (like with that drakonid race in Endless Legend).
Also, the influence serves as a threshold for an alliance victory, but it isn't something innate to the resource.

To generate influence you either need to be Phidi, either conquer Phidi's capital, either be lucky enough to have contacts with xenos who won't try to devour your empire at least for a hundred turns.
Simply put, to get influence you have to have influence, and bad luck will easily throw you into an influence pit you have little chance (see Phidi) to get out from.

It may or may not be a superfluous resource and it wholly depends on the hypothetical diplomacy reimplementation.
As a plan B it may be rededicated from external affairs to internal affairs.
A tactical (or ongoing) implementation of influence on natives or hungry or other malcontents may be able to persuade them that it's for the greater good.

But markets work too well for this (and have other benefits), so it'll require some far-reaching consequences.
I personally don't think this resource is needed in the game as it is at all.


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