Free the Enfi

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Chasm
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Free the Enfi

Postby Chasm » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:07 am

Upon invading Gremal, I find myself owning a large number of enfi. The liberate option in greyed out. How can I free the enslaved...

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Arioch
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby Arioch » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:13 am

You can't. The Enfi have been slaves for so long that they don't know any other way.

Ashbery76
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby Ashbery76 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:57 pm

Arioch wrote:You can't. The Enfi have been slaves for so long that they don't know any other way.


Not sure I can buy that explanation about a sentient being.

bjg
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby bjg » Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:49 pm

I agree that freeing long term slaves wont do them any good. What about the next generation? Do slaves reproduce? It might be logical to have an option for the new offspring to be free or enslaved.

Chasm
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby Chasm » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:01 pm

Or a process similar to the discontent mechanic, where they are reeducated at a % chance per turn?

Dollars202
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby Dollars202 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:23 am

Arioch wrote:You can't. The Enfi have been slaves for so long that they don't know any other way.


They said the same thing about African Americans when the 13th amendment to the constitution of the United States was passed during the Civil War. Only way I can see this working is if the Enfi are not fully sentient. Even then Liberation is merely a legal term and not an economic or mental one. I would however put a penalty on them becoming fully working members as many African Americans did not ever establish themselves economically as fully independent of their former owners, rather becoming sharecroppers instead of slaves after the Civil war. If Enfi are fully intelligent beings, treating them as equal members of society is a choice of the society in question, not a matter of not knowing any other way. ( You might ask if that means no society in your game can make such a leap to treating all races with equality, which is a matter of the freed societies members not knowing any other way) You could treat this as a xeno research matter rather since integrating certain xeno races is obviously harder with some races rather than others. A good way to treat this in game is for them to be liberated but have no benefit or impose a penalty til certain research is done.

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Arioch
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby Arioch » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:11 pm

The Enfi are not a social or racial subgroup; they are a completely different alien species that has been enslaved by the Gremak for as long as dogs have been domesticated on Earth. They've been bred for servility, not for 100 years, but for tens of thousands of years.

There would not be any difference in game terms between enslaved Enfi and free Enfi. If you want to treat them as free citizens (and not use them as Forced Labor), then feel free to do so, but the act of liberation would be a meaningless formality accompanied by an inappropriate morale boost.

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SirDamnALot
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby SirDamnALot » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:02 pm

Arioch wrote:The Enfi are not a social or racial subgroup; they are a completely different alien species that has been enslaved by the Gremak for as long as dogs have been domesticated on Earth. They've been bred for servility, not for 100 years, but for tens of thousands of years.

I can dig that. Our modern purpose breed milk cows wouldn't stand a chance if you'd release them back into the woods.
Wolfs and bears would thank you for the free steaks :mrgreen:

Dollars202
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby Dollars202 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:26 pm

Arioch wrote:The Enfi are not a social or racial subgroup; they are a completely different alien species that has been enslaved by the Gremak for as long as dogs have been domesticated on Earth. They've been bred for servility, not for 100 years, but for tens of thousands of years.


I fail to see what dogs have to do with a sentient tool user. Even if they were bred for a million years it still wouldn't matter on the future generations that are granted access to teachers who are willing for them to learn when they are free. For as the effects of being enslaved for generations as a potential food source I would recommend reading David Weber's and Steve White's book 'The Shiva Option'. This book shows the horror of a race being enslaved for generations and what certain societies would be willing to do to overcome that. The only way this would even be believable is for the Enfi to be illiterate and incapable of learning to read and write at all. Make them a race who likes to mimic the actions of others would explain a lot.

bjg
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby bjg » Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:00 am

Do you get negative morale for having slaves if the slaves are Enfi only?

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SirDamnALot
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby SirDamnALot » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:05 am

Dollars202 wrote:I fail to see what dogs have to do with a sentient tool user. Even if they were bred for a million years it still wouldn't matter on the future generations that are granted access to teachers who are willing for them to learn when they are free. For as the effects of being enslaved for generations as a potential food source I would recommend reading David Weber's and Steve White's book 'The Shiva Option'. This book shows the horror of a race being enslaved for generations and what certain societies would be willing to do to overcome that. The only way this would even be believable is for the Enfi to be illiterate and incapable of learning to read and write at all. Make them a race who likes to mimic the actions of others would explain a lot.

Selective breeding gave us chihuahuas from wolfs. If you take a fresh generation of chihuahuas and raise them differently, you still won't get wolfs back.
If Enfis are breed to be biological dumb like a bag of hammers, then rasing them differently will only go so far.

Crows are very able and clever tool users.
You could probably train them to do some specific tasks, but they won't become a part of society.
So tool using and sentience are maybe not enough if you are lacking in sapience.

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Arioch
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby Arioch » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:09 am

bjg wrote:Do you get negative morale for having slaves if the slaves are Enfi only?

Most races only incur morale or reputation penalties for taking slaves, trading slaves, or using forced labor. Just having Enfi that you captured from the Gremak won't cause a penalty unless you try to have them live on the same planet as a race that objects to living with slaves.

Dollars202
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby Dollars202 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:53 pm

SirDamnALot wrote:Selective breeding gave us chihuahuas from wolfs. If you take a fresh generation of chihuahuas and raise them differently, you still won't get wolfs back.
If Enfis are breed to be biological dumb like a bag of hammers, then rasing them differently will only go so far.


However if you keep breeding them again and again for generations you would get your wolves back. That is my whole point, if at one time they were a separate society with that potential then with time (granted it'd take generations without serious mind control or serious social enginering) they could regain what they once lost. It Sounds like a tech upgrade to me, or an expansion/achievement potential: 'Stars in Shadow Two: Empire of the Enfi' or something.) Perhaps as free people they are no better than they have achieved as slaves. I just think that liberating them is a society decision that as supreme leader and dictator of my empire i should be able to make. ( I'd have no problem in it resulting in negative morale or even riots as has happened in real Earth Societies when slaves are liberated)

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SirDamnALot
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby SirDamnALot » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:45 am

Dollars202 wrote:
SirDamnALot wrote:Selective breeding gave us chihuahuas from wolfs. If you take a fresh generation of chihuahuas and raise them differently, you still won't get wolfs back.
If Enfis are breed to be biological dumb like a bag of hammers, then rasing them differently will only go so far.


However if you keep breeding them again and again for generations you would get your wolves back. That is my whole point, if at one time they were a separate society with that potential then with time (granted it'd take generations without serious mind control or serious social enginering) they could regain what they once lost.

I think the time frame of a typical game wouldn't be long enough to show effects on the Enfi. And forcing them into a selective breeding program, regardless of good intentions, is also an ethical questionable proposition. Uplifting them with genetic modifaction leads to desolate islands with mad scientists and their created creatures...

Besides, they are a very small aspect of the whole game. Having much game mechanics focused on them is probably not on the to-do list.

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TheDeadlyShoe
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Re: Free the Enfi

Postby TheDeadlyShoe » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:23 am

wat if you could make an enfi preserve, where the enfi contributed nothing to your empire but stopped increasing in number and all your populations got a happiness bonus?


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