Suggest - Features and Improvements

A forum for chatting about in-development game features.

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Arioch
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby Arioch » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:22 am

zolobolo wrote:Also already mentioned before but really suggest ignoring ground troops during raid - it leads to awkward situations where two tanks and Assault Marine cannot caputre a single slave for 2 turns even though they have a 85% chance of conquering the planet itself.

Why raid a colony if you have enough troops to conquer it and take everyone as slaves?

If you have the ability to drop your troops anywhere on the world, presumably the defending troops have the same capability; they have vehicles and transportation infrastructure too, and it's not as if they can't see you coming. Being able to grab slaves from a well-defended world without the defenders having anything to say about it seems just silly. That might be fun to do to the AI, but I don't think it would be very fun if the AI could do that to you.

zolobolo
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby zolobolo » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:33 pm

Arioch wrote:
zolobolo wrote:Also already mentioned before but really suggest ignoring ground troops during raid - it leads to awkward situations where two tanks and Assault Marine cannot caputre a single slave for 2 turns even though they have a 85% chance of conquering the planet itself.

Why raid a colony if you have enough troops to conquer it and take everyone as slaves?

If you have the ability to drop your troops anywhere on the world, presumably the defending troops have the same capability; they have vehicles and transportation infrastructure too, and it's not as if they can't see you coming. Being able to grab slaves from a well-defended world without the defenders having anything to say about it seems just silly. That might be fun to do to the AI, but I don't think it would be very fun if the AI could do that to you.

I absolutely agree: why raid a colony if we have enought troops to conquer it?
Since the defending forces take their toll on the raiders, the raider force needs to be stronger then the defenders to not get wiped out=can conquer the planet

Sometimes the odds for capturing slaves seem to be even worse then capturing hte planet In the above example I even raided an undefended planet of two pops and no milita tech with 2 tanks and 1 radier unit and got out with 0 slaves in two attacks: invading the planet had 85% chance for a succesfull conquest.

Hence my question if we could see the probability of capturing slaves: that may clear up the odds

But generally raiding is not a viable tactic as it needs the same amount of preparation as invasion, has the same probability of casualties but apperantly lower chance for success. If the costs are the same as invasion but the potential benefits are less in which situation is it a viable option?

The only situation I can imagine is when the planet cannot be held and a superior enemy force is already inbound: in this case it is still a better idea to invade, take the salves and demolish the buildings

If the chance for unit loss would be lower then for invasion and the chance of capturing slaves higher then that of invasion, it would make sense but we would need to see the numbes and the differences to determine that - so far in my experience the odds are worse

Hence my other suggestion: if the two actions are clearly segregated, the mechanic is also clear as well as the pros and cons.

Dragar
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby Dragar » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:47 pm

Arioch, when do you envision us (as players!) raiding worlds for slaves, rather than taking the planet?

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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby Arioch » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:25 am

Dragar wrote:Arioch, when do you envision us (as players!) raiding worlds for slaves, rather than taking the planet?

Frontier colonies with small populations and lacking defensive infrastructure are practical targets for slaver raids (and this is usually the situation in which you find such slave raiders in science fiction literature). You'll get small numbers of slaves, but with minimal effort and can it be done early in the game before you have large fleets. This was designed as something for the NPC Marauder faction to do, but I thought it might be fun to let the Gremak player do it as well. It's not meant to be a game-changing tactic, or even the most efficient way to capture slaves. If raiders' use is limited, I'm perfectly okay with that. (They're also essentially the only purchased/manufactured militia in the game, which is not nothing when you need to maintain a certain military ratio on slave planets.)

AMX
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby AMX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:20 pm

FWIW, the idea that raiders might land in a remote part of the planet, grab what/who they can, and then run like hell before the garrison can bring the hammer down on them seems perfectly logical to me.

zolobolo
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby zolobolo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:25 pm

I see the idea and it works pretty well for Marauders.

For the player the mechanic is only utilizable via Gremak or Humans

For Humans the problem is clear I think: as mentioned before they have a very slow start and cannot effectively produce Assault MArines with transports for raiding within the first 100 turns (also has way to heavy research requirement for that). I guess in case of Humans the idea for Assault Marines was to use them for boarding action and raiding has been added in afterwards to them when they turned out to be classified as milita as well

In case of Gremak it is more tricky as they already start with the Marauder Raiders "tech" available to them + their starting homeworld and slaves allow for the rollout of a raiding unit with 4 turns compared to 6 turns for a tank + 4 Turns for transport. It seems like a viable option for them from early game on and they could save 50% metal and roughly 50% produciton cost on tank unit compared to invasion. The question again is what are the odds? If they are perfectly identical or better then that of invasion, then it is viable for Gremak, but if the success rate is lower, the small saving on 2 Turns per unit is not worth it as raiding actions need to be swift unlike invasions else might as well invade and then pull out

But considering the basic idea the mechnic is not meant to function beyond early game which I find to be a shame as it has a lot of potential

Withouth touching on the base idea then: how abouth giving Human faction the tech necessary to build Assault Marines right off the bat and/or better yet: a couple of Assault Marine units to start with. This way they can have some fun decision in early game as well and partake in the raiding mechanic before it is outdated. It would also fit their nomad pirate nature to start with some "raiding" as well as boarding units - I have also suggested once to outright replace the tank units with Marines for Humans and make them 2X as strong to make the faction even more unique and auto-apply the correct unit for boarding ships instead of tanks which do not add that much manpower. This mid-to late game weakining of their invasion forces could even serve to balanced out the advantage they are given in the start

Dragar
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby Dragar » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:43 pm

Arioch wrote:
Dragar wrote:Arioch, when do you envision us (as players!) raiding worlds for slaves, rather than taking the planet?

Frontier colonies with small populations and lacking defensive infrastructure are practical targets for slaver raids (and this is usually the situation in which you find such slave raiders in science fiction literature). You'll get small numbers of slaves, but with minimal effort and can it be done early in the game before you have large fleets. This was designed as something for the NPC Marauder faction to do, but I thought it might be fun to let the Gremak player do it as well. It's not meant to be a game-changing tactic, or even the most efficient way to capture slaves. If raiders' use is limited, I'm perfectly okay with that. (They're also essentially the only purchased/manufactured militia in the game, which is not nothing when you need to maintain a certain military ratio on slave planets.)


Thanks; that makes sense. I think the real dilemma here is for the designer to effectively communicate all that in game. I'm fine with it not being a core feature (if it were, it wouldn't make much sense economically, really.)

(I also appreciate the militia behaviour; moreso than their raiding ability!)


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