Suggest - Features and Improvements

A forum for chatting about in-development game features.
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PrivateHudson
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby PrivateHudson » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:24 am

Tinkers wouldn't hurt to show a bit more zealotry toward Dzibix. Can't retreat when defending it in a space battle, fight to the death when defending it on the ground. If you are archimandrit, can't bomb Dzibix. If you aren't, and bombed, Tinkers will hate you forever (like major atrocity victims in Alpha Centauri), all your tinkers population revolts instantly no matter the odds. Accompany this with a few lines of diplomatic conversation. Not game-breaking changes, but touches to racial character.

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PrivateHudson
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby PrivateHudson » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:00 am

Weapon overlays on Orthin destroyer seem too small, smaller than on other races' destroyers. Hard to tell apart beam ones from missile and AM, not even speaking about different beams and cannons.

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Centurion XXI
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby Centurion XXI » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:14 pm

PrivateHudson wrote:Tinkers wouldn't hurt to show a bit more zealotry toward Dzibix. Can't retreat when defending it in a space battle, fight to the death when defending it on the ground. If you are archimandrit, can't bomb Dzibix. If you aren't, and bombed, Tinkers will hate you forever (like major atrocity victims in Alpha Centauri), all your tinkers population revolts instantly no matter the odds. Accompany this with a few lines of diplomatic conversation. Not game-breaking changes, but touches to racial character.


Учитывая "врождённый" коллективизм жестянщиков, было бы здорово иметь свой аналог приказа "ни шагу назад". Без заградотрядов 8)

With the "innate" collectivism of Tinkers, it would be great to have an analogue of order "not one step back". Without barrier-squads 8)

zolobolo
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby zolobolo » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm

zolobolo wrote:The main problem with ion cannons are their relative strenght and position within the tech tree
Ion cannon is proceeded by laser and follwed up by Turbolaser right away

When comparing the 3 tehre are obvious issues with ion gun:

Laser
- Research Cost: no base cost (+780 for RP and RF mod)
- Damage: 1-10
- Mods: AC; AP; RF

Ion Cannon
- Research cost: 1270
- Damage: 6-18
- Mods: AC

Turbolaser
- Research Cost: 1790 (+780 for RP and RF mod)
- Damage: 3-14
- Mods: AC; AP; RF

The issue if the same for PD: Its easy to see that the base laser is clearly better with onyl the two mods then ion: less research to get there, higher max damage + AP

It of course makes sense to upgrade to Turbolaser once that is available as it makes modded laser objectively better - add to that that Ion usually becomes avaialble at aroudn the same time turbolaser is.

Ion only seems to make any sence if the player has been ignoring all of the energy weapon mods but this is very detrimental for PD and resutls to even higher outage for ship refits once modded turboalser comes available

I can understand that Ion runs dont get RF mod as it would question the use of turbolasers - though I would recommend it if nothing else can be done as Turbolaser would still have AP to make sense

Ideally Ion Cannons would be given their own Mod ENV, EMP or a bonus damage to shields - anything related to sucking up shield pwoer faster would be welcome anyhow as shields are very very powerfull in this game and there are very few weapons that are good against them

Tried to run a game whee I am using Ion Cannons but its simply not viable:
Ion Cannon.JPG
Ion Cannon.JPG (74.09 KiB) Viewed 14737 times


Part of the issue is that both AP and RF mods are long available for the player by the time they get to Turbolaser - which is shortly after arriving at Ion Cannon (due to the research diff above)

So the issue cannot even realyl be solved by slightly increasing hte damage output of Ion Cannons
Either:
1. Research needs to be rebalanced so that both the mods and Trubolaser are more difficult to come by
2. Mod for Ion Cannon that makes ti viable next to Turbolaser

Now Ion Cannon might have been planned to be simpy Tier 2 laser like Fusion tch for missiles - once its superseeded its not needed anymore but the difference between ion and turbo is smaller then taht of fusion and Anti-Matter

There might be another option (a variant of #1) though: Segregate each mod of each weapon type into its own tech
This would mean that player can only research Turbolaser mod once Turbolaser has been researched giving much needed time for Ion tech to be actually produced or even used

Would still prefer to give them mod so that it is viable next to Trubolaser just like missiles have various falvors at the end: EMP, Leech, AM but segregating Turbolaser mods should be more simple and straight-forward + it would also help ease in the use of Turbolaser

I have never every used this tech without AP+RF which means there is some progression opportunity lost here meaning: as is, Turbolaser could have AP and RF effect integrated into it and rolled out in the base package so there is less micro in selecting the mods everytime the weapon is placed somewhere - I do not recommend this of coruse though: woudl be best to have the mods be available later

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Arioch
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby Arioch » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:52 pm

"Viable" is not the same as "optimal." I can and do win games using ion cannons, so it's not accurate to say that they are not viable.
I think we need to add mods for non-lasers, and I think it would help to implement the "charged" damage type to distinguish ions from lasers.
We are going to be adding a damage-over-time damage type in DLC2, so maybe that will be a good time to address this.

PrivateHudson wrote:Weapon overlays on Orthin destroyer seem too small, smaller than on other races' destroyers. Hard to tell apart beam ones from missile and AM, not even speaking about different beams and cannons.

The Orthin destroyer is comparatively large, and so the weapon mounts appear proportionally smaller. I'm not sure what could be done about that. It doesn't seem like a huge difference to me.

orthin_dd_weapons.jpg
orthin_dd_weapons.jpg (72.43 KiB) Viewed 14735 times

zolobolo
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby zolobolo » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:01 pm

Arioch wrote:"Viable" is not the same as "optimal." I can and do win games using ion cannons, so it's not accurate to say that they are not viable.
I think we need to add mods for non-lasers, and I think it would help to implement the "charged" damage type to distinguish ions from lasers.
We are going to be adding a damage-over-time damage type in DLC2, so maybe that will be a good time to address this.

You are right I didnt go into details on that: its not viable as the enemy is using Turbolasers. When I am trying to use Ion Cannons I get wrecked :)

Charged damage I assume is the same concept you have implemented to Orthin Busbar systems?
Please note I havent seen AI use that module at all so the script might not contain the necessary decision branches to use it or there is a bug preventing it

In general dedicated mod for non-layer type weapons such as Ion sounds great -also think its the optimal approach and would set the various types of weapons evne further apart (Long Range mod is already only available for Coil which is likely the reason I still use it every now and then next to laser)
Charge over time could also be great but the AI needs to be able to use it otherwise its a waste to have it :)

zolobolo
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby zolobolo » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:52 pm

From mod side of thigns ther are a lot of options that I think would be fitting for Ion:
1. ENV
2. EMP
3. Additional damage against shield or hull
4. Blocking of shield regen

Damage over time: if it means that the damage output increses with each shot that would be fitting for mounting these one large ships: cruisers, heavy cruises and battleships as they sometimes cannot shoot due to firing arc and slow turnspeed so besides beign thematically fitting that large ships produce more damage if they havent firred for a while, the AI woudl also naturally "utilize" such a bonus :)

If it means that a target that is hit receives damage over several turns from Ion, that might also fit as it would basically be the shiled regen or EMP bonus in a way - also very fitting for Gremak

I am very mcuh looking forward to useing them with Gremak as their default image with cruisers and double and sometimes even triplle barrel Ion guns remind me of WW2 battelships and would be cool to finally be able to filed such very cool looking ships (and not loose the engagement). rRom the available weapons I find the Ion Guns are one of the coolest designs (espeically Yoral heavy mounted version)

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Arioch
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby Arioch » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:17 pm

zolobolo wrote:Charged damage I assume is the same concept you have implemented to Orthin Busbar systems?

No. Charged/electrical damage type does extra internal damage if it penetrates armor and shields.

zolobolo
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby zolobolo » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:38 pm

Arioch wrote:
zolobolo wrote:Charged damage I assume is the same concept you have implemented to Orthin Busbar systems?

No. Charged/electrical damage type does extra internal damage if it penetrates armor and shields.

Ok so bonus hull damage + EMP effect - Sounds awesome, and should be usefull for Gremak capital ships jsut need to make sure it is always combined with some shield penetrating plasma and Leach missiles to get to that point

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PrivateHudson
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby PrivateHudson » Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:14 pm

1. Please enlarge weapon overlays on Orthin destroyer to 1.5x current size, if not too much trouble. If too much, no problem, so be it. It's a shame the excellent weapon images aren't a visual dominant.
2. About ions. Not sure we need another hull/equipment wrecker, while the bulk of resistance is provided by shields. I'd rather see beam analogue of leeches.

zolobolo
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby zolobolo » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:21 pm

PrivateHudson wrote:1. Please enlarge weapon overlays on Orthin destroyer to 1.5x current size, if not too much trouble. If too much, no problem, so be it. It's a shame the excellent weapon images aren't a visual dominant.
2. About ions. Not sure we need another hull/equipment wrecker, while the bulk of resistance is provided by shields. I'd rather see beam analogue of leeches.

I agree that shields are very powerfull (due to a combination of scaling with ship size, recharge rate and other system options not really being useful) and hence would consider Ion with anti-shield effect first - but maybe other weapon balancing is also planned and another weapon type will get the honors

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PrivateHudson
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby PrivateHudson » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:27 am

One task on a colony management screen requires excessive clicking: to load accumulated troops (often 15-20 units) into orbiting transports. More fun is added by troop icons swapping places with other loadable types (marauder companies, population) once their relative numbers change. Suggest to implement mass-loading by double click or shift-click on Load button.

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PrivateHudson
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby PrivateHudson » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:25 am

Suggest to disallow point-defence weapons and anti-missiles fire against planet to 1) diversify weapons a bit and 2) let planetary defenses last a little longer.

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Arioch
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby Arioch » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:43 am

PrivateHudson wrote:Suggest to disallow point-defence weapons and anti-missiles fire against planet to 1) diversify weapons a bit and 2) let planetary defenses last a little longer.

Are you finding that point defense weaponry is doing a significant portion of your damage to planets? I would be surprised.

That aside, if you're at the stage of a planetary battle where you're firing on the planet, usually the battle is effectively over. Anything that would prolong the battle at that point does not seem to me to be desirable.

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PrivateHudson
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Re: Suggest - Features and Improvements

Postby PrivateHudson » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm

Arioch wrote:
PrivateHudson wrote:Suggest to disallow point-defence weapons and anti-missiles fire against planet to 1) diversify weapons a bit and 2) let planetary defenses last a little longer.

Are you finding that point defense weaponry is doing a significant portion of your damage to planets? I would be surprised.

That aside, if you're at the stage of a planetary battle where you're firing on the planet, usually the battle is effectively over. Anything that would prolong the battle at that point does not seem to me to be desirable.

Agreed, fairly minor change, not a factor in battle outcome. Mostly stems from a sense of perceived "realism".


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