Issue: An small enemy fleet is heading towards one of my unprotected planets. I have numerous destroyers and lighter cruisers in the area. I move some ships in to protect the target system. The next turn the enemy targets a different system, one that I just vacated to protect the first system, and is now 1 turn closer. I move my ships again, and the dance continues until they arrive at an unprotected system and quickly capture it (no planetary defenses there yet). I move my fleet to recapture and they just hop their cruiser one step ahead of me and keep taking my younger systems. If I spread out my ships to protect everything at once, then they get destroyed turn by turn in uneven battles. I have a superior fleet, but the way the game works I need to have a superior fleet at every single one of my systems that are in close proximity in order to fully protect them.
I haven't thought this through, but here are some ideas to ponder:
Suggestion One: Once a fleet is over 1/2 way on its journey to a destination it cannot divert. Alternately, once a fleet is within X (2?) turns of a system it cannot divert. This would allow me to set up an adequate defense without worrying about nearby systems.
Suggestion Two: Once a fleet arrives at a system, it has to "rest" for a turn before it can leave or attack. Alternately, once a fleet has attacked it has to "rest" for a turn before it can leave. This would give me a chance to pin down the enemy fleet and use my numerical advantage.
Fleet Motion Rules
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sven
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Re: Fleet Motion Rules
I agree that this is a problem. In addition to annoying players, mid-game game AI vs. AI wars are playing out in some strange ways right now, and part of the problem is that the rerouting rules mean that defending against small raiding fleets is nearly impossible.
I'm not sure about the 1/2 distance rule, but, something along these lines strikes me as reasonable. Maybe a "coms-jamming" tech that would prevent enemy hyperspace communications if their ships were within some distance of your worlds? Fundamentally, I think the problem we have right now is that late-game communication techs are too strong, they're probably due for either a straight nerf or an in-game counter of some sort.
This is an interesting one. It certainly would make it easier to catch up to raiding fleets. But, it would also break up the flow of early exploration. And it would be a strange partner for the new retreat mechanics Arioch and I are planning (whereby retreating ships are forced to enter hyperspace).
But, like Suggestion One, I think the idea might have potential as a tech. For example, as the techs get fleshed out, we'll probably be including a "hyperspace nullifier" component that would prevent ships from retreating in tactical combat. A stronger variant of the same system might also prevent enemy ships from leaving the system for a turn or two.
As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm also planning to add more techs related to ship motion -- and a station component that increases the number of turns enemy ships require to reach the system is another piece I'd like to try here.
JohnnyW00t wrote:Suggestion One: Once a fleet is over 1/2 way on its journey to a destination it cannot divert. Alternately, once a fleet is within X (2?) turns of a system it cannot divert. This would allow me to set up an adequate defense without worrying about nearby systems.
I'm not sure about the 1/2 distance rule, but, something along these lines strikes me as reasonable. Maybe a "coms-jamming" tech that would prevent enemy hyperspace communications if their ships were within some distance of your worlds? Fundamentally, I think the problem we have right now is that late-game communication techs are too strong, they're probably due for either a straight nerf or an in-game counter of some sort.
JohnnyW00t wrote:Suggestion Two: Once a fleet arrives at a system, it has to "rest" for a turn before it can leave or attack. Alternately, once a fleet has attacked it has to "rest" for a turn before it can leave. This would give me a chance to pin down the enemy fleet and use my numerical advantage.
This is an interesting one. It certainly would make it easier to catch up to raiding fleets. But, it would also break up the flow of early exploration. And it would be a strange partner for the new retreat mechanics Arioch and I are planning (whereby retreating ships are forced to enter hyperspace).
But, like Suggestion One, I think the idea might have potential as a tech. For example, as the techs get fleshed out, we'll probably be including a "hyperspace nullifier" component that would prevent ships from retreating in tactical combat. A stronger variant of the same system might also prevent enemy ships from leaving the system for a turn or two.
As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm also planning to add more techs related to ship motion -- and a station component that increases the number of turns enemy ships require to reach the system is another piece I'd like to try here.
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JohnnyW00t
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Re: Fleet Motion Rules
sven wrote:... it would be a strange partner for the new retreat mechanics Arioch and I are planning (whereby retreating ships are forced to enter hyperspace). ... As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm also planning to add more techs related to ship motion -- and a station component that increases the number of turns enemy ships require to reach the system is another piece I'd like to try here.
Cool, I look forward to seeing the new twists. Once could also fault me for grabbing too many small systems too fast
Re: Fleet Motion Rules
How about if you could send a fleet to intercept an enemy fleet in deep space? Just select the enemy fleet as your destination, and get the combat to take place away from a friendly planet, thus protecting your colonies from any kind of combat-bombardment. A faster fleet would also be able to chase down enemies after they retreat.
Re: Fleet Motion Rules
The current retreat mechanism means that you can't really force an enemy fleet to fight you if they don't want to. Under these circumstances, intercepting a fleet in deep space wouldn't do much good.
And given the current command range limitations, if the target fleet changed course, it could lead your intercepting fleet getting outside of its command range, and since you could not recall it, moving far away from your own territory.
And given the current command range limitations, if the target fleet changed course, it could lead your intercepting fleet getting outside of its command range, and since you could not recall it, moving far away from your own territory.
Re: Fleet Motion Rules
While a part of me thinks it would be cool to intercept enemy ships in deep space, in general I don't think it should be allowable.
Combat in the vacuum of space is only ever going to happen around points of interest like planets and such where two or more sides have an objective to attack/defend. If one side has no reason to fight they'll always choose to retreat when outnumbered or outclassed, assuming FTL speeds are the same for all sides involved.
I can only see two instances where deep space battles could take place. One is where one side has faster FTL capabilities to the point where they can force an engagement by constantly catching up to a retreating enemy to fight. However, even this approach may not make sense depending on the mechanics and lore of FTL in a game. In Star Trek, combat at FTL speeds is possible because some weapons travel at warp speeds. However, in Star Wars combat doesn't happen in hyperspace at all. This leads me to my second instance where deep space battles happen.
In Star Wars and other Sci Fi setting, there exist FTL jamming fields, gravity wells, interdiction fields, etc. These can pull ships out of FTL and prevent them from making FTL jumps. Such a field could allow one side to force a deep space engagement by stopping an enemy from retreating or literally sitting in their path in deep space and dragging them out of FTL. I don't know if such a technology would help solve the problems discussed in this thread, but I thought I'd bring it up.
Combat in the vacuum of space is only ever going to happen around points of interest like planets and such where two or more sides have an objective to attack/defend. If one side has no reason to fight they'll always choose to retreat when outnumbered or outclassed, assuming FTL speeds are the same for all sides involved.
I can only see two instances where deep space battles could take place. One is where one side has faster FTL capabilities to the point where they can force an engagement by constantly catching up to a retreating enemy to fight. However, even this approach may not make sense depending on the mechanics and lore of FTL in a game. In Star Trek, combat at FTL speeds is possible because some weapons travel at warp speeds. However, in Star Wars combat doesn't happen in hyperspace at all. This leads me to my second instance where deep space battles happen.
In Star Wars and other Sci Fi setting, there exist FTL jamming fields, gravity wells, interdiction fields, etc. These can pull ships out of FTL and prevent them from making FTL jumps. Such a field could allow one side to force a deep space engagement by stopping an enemy from retreating or literally sitting in their path in deep space and dragging them out of FTL. I don't know if such a technology would help solve the problems discussed in this thread, but I thought I'd bring it up.
Re: Fleet Motion Rules
I agree that with the current easy-escape mechanic my suggestion doesn't do much good, but I see the current escape mechanic as a placeholder for something better, and thought deep-space-interception could be one component of a solution to the puzzle of making sensible fleet motion rules, such that the problem that started this thread - an attack fleet zigzagging towards 2 or more colonies - is solved.
The design goal should be some kind of balance between allowing the defender to force a full fleet vs full fleet fight, and allowing an attacker to attack from an unexpected angle or force the defender to split his forces. The balance should depend on techs and hardware on both sides, as well as on the placement of outposts and colonies.
Another component of a good solution could be to give a fuel cost to zigzagging i.e. decrease max range from a friendly colony thus preventing 'infinite zigzagging', and making this kind of tactic dependent on having fuel techs/extended fuel tanks and/or outposts near/in enemy territory. This would make it harder to maneuver into an unprotected colony. I'd also add a time-delay resulting from changing course, lengthening the time to get to the destination by at least 1 turn.
The design goal should be some kind of balance between allowing the defender to force a full fleet vs full fleet fight, and allowing an attacker to attack from an unexpected angle or force the defender to split his forces. The balance should depend on techs and hardware on both sides, as well as on the placement of outposts and colonies.
Another component of a good solution could be to give a fuel cost to zigzagging i.e. decrease max range from a friendly colony thus preventing 'infinite zigzagging', and making this kind of tactic dependent on having fuel techs/extended fuel tanks and/or outposts near/in enemy territory. This would make it harder to maneuver into an unprotected colony. I'd also add a time-delay resulting from changing course, lengthening the time to get to the destination by at least 1 turn.
Re: Fleet Motion Rules
The defender has powerful ground bases and battle stations at his disposal, so I'm not sure it's fair to allow the defender to always be able to concentrate all of this fleets to meet any attack. I think it's reasonable that the defender should have to spread his fleet out a bit to defend a close border.
That said, the current mechanic is a little bit irritating. The two things we plan to change to help with this are 1: reduce command range so that it's harder to change course when in enemy territory, and 2: require any fleet that escapes by retreating to automatically return to the nearest friendly system. Adding a delay to mid-course corrections is also a good suggestion.
The problem that this leaves is when fleets jump past the front line deeper into enemy territory, especially later in the game. We're talking about ways to ameliorate the problem with things like hyperspace damping fields or warp interdictors, that slow or block ships from going past the target system.
That said, the current mechanic is a little bit irritating. The two things we plan to change to help with this are 1: reduce command range so that it's harder to change course when in enemy territory, and 2: require any fleet that escapes by retreating to automatically return to the nearest friendly system. Adding a delay to mid-course corrections is also a good suggestion.
The problem that this leaves is when fleets jump past the front line deeper into enemy territory, especially later in the game. We're talking about ways to ameliorate the problem with things like hyperspace damping fields or warp interdictors, that slow or block ships from going past the target system.
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sven
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Re: Fleet Motion Rules
projekcja wrote:I'd also add a time-delay resulting from changing course, lengthening the time to get to the destination by at least 1 turn.
This is a simple change that I think makes sense. The consequences of zig-zagging fleets can be pretty confusing, and this way, players with appropriate scanners are guaranteed to get at least 1 turn worth of warning before invaders turn up in their systems.
Arioch wrote:That said, the current mechanic is a little bit irritating. The two things we plan to change to help with this are 1: reduce command range so that it's harder to change course when in enemy territory, and 2: require any fleet that escapes by retreating to automatically return to the nearest friendly system. Adding a delay to mid-course corrections is also a good suggestion.
All of these mechanics changes should be working in game as of r13112 -- (just marked 'stable').
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